Starmer Speaks Of “Reset” With Europe In Berlin | #NovaraLIVE

Intro welcome to Navara live I'm Michael Walker and I'm delighted to be joined by Abby Wilkinson um Abby is a journalist um you were at the mirror weren't you I remember you coming on Nar sort of a few years ago before you went and and became a full-time parent for a while I think uh yeah I was I was briefly at the mirror uh and then for a few years I was freelancing uh writing a lot of opinion a few features uh for the guardian and all kinds of places but yeah I've been looking after my kids fulltime for five years now uh yeah almost five years I haven't met them but I've seen them on Instagram they they look very cute it's great to have you um back on Navara media coming up later tonight we'll be discussing um Israel conducting a series of major raids in the West Bank and Rachel Reeves facing fail of criticism for scrapping the winter fuel allowance we got a clip from a decade ago that puts some of her recent claims uh under a spotlight and Donald Trump has a brand new grip this is really entertaining you want to wait for that um first off though um K starma has been in Berlin K starma has repeatedly said that he has one overriding priority as prime minister Starmer Negotiating UK-Germany Treaty getting Britain growing and one drag on growth in the UK has been the increased friction between ourselves and our most important trading partner which is the European Union the eu's most important economy is of course Germany and so earlier today starma headed to Berlin to meet Chancellor Olaf Schultz to discuss a new treaty between the two Nations that is what we are doing today a new UK Germany treaty a once in a generation chance to deliver for working people in Britain and in Germany a new agreement a testament to the depth and potential of our relationship with deeper links on science technology development people business culture a boost to our trading relations Germany of course already the UK's second largest trading partner in the world and through that a chance to create jobs here and in the United Kingdom and deliver that most precious of goods for both our countries economic growth that was K St trying to create clear water between his friendly approach to Europe and the rhetorical hostility of his Tory predecessors it's not clear though how this change in tone will actually impact concrete policy that's because starma has ruled out Britain rejoining the single Market or the Customs Union and his new government has even rolled out joining a youth Mobility scheme proposed by Brussels which would have allowed under 30s to move freely between the UK and the rest of Europe at the press conference today Sky be rpy asked both leaders what the point of these negotiations was given um those positions this is what starma and Schultz said is very significant for both the UK and for Germany and that's why I say it's a Once in a generation opportunity uh to take uh something of that order forward for both of our countries when it comes to the wider uh reset with Europe I'm absolutely clear that we do want a reset I've been able to repeat that here uh today a reset with Europe a reset with the EU that does not mean reversing brexit um or re-entering the single Market or the Customs Union but it does mean a closer relationship on a number of fronts including the economy including defense including exchanges um but we do not have plans um for the Youth Mobility um scheme but we do have plans for a closer relationship between um us and the EU as part of that WID set so the position today is exactly as it was before the um election but what we've been able to do today is to move that forward with the bilateral uh treaty agreement and to reiterate um our desire to reset the relationships uh with the EU thank you I don't have much to add from my point of view we want to create good relations between the UK and the European Union it can become better day by day and we all share an interest the historic decision uh in Germany was taken um Great Britain the UK has left the European Union but we're friends we live on the same continent and from our point of view from our perspective and we are of the opinion that there is reason to do everything uh in our power to improve relations between uh our both countries but also the UK and the European Union to discuss stas talks in Berlin I'm joined by Professor Anand Manon from the UK in a changing Europe Think Tank um and N thank you for joining me um and can you start by I suppose helping get my head around a basic question so how is it the UK and Germany can be negotiating a treaty um that starmer has said will affect trade between the two countries it's all about growth all about trade um isn't that something you can only negotiate with the EU as a whole well I mean the simple answer is there is some stuff that remains within the purview of member states so a lot of rules a lot of rules around uh public contracts and public procurement a lot of rules about uh what sort of qualifications you need to practice your trade in that country those are things that member states still get to decide for themselves so in those kinds of areas K starma could sit down and negotiate directly with Olaf Schultz assuming Olaf Schultz is willing to so one area where member states could if they wanted to negotiate bilaterally with us is around youth Mobility because competence is a bit unclear and some of it remains with the member states but member states have said actually you know what we're going to negotiate that with you through the European Union so as long as a member state has the competence and is willing to negotiate on that basis there are some small things that we can achieve in the area of trade by bypassing Brussels and going straight to National capitals can you talk about the youth Mobility scheme because as you said that is now something which is being proposed from Brussels so as far as I understand that was sort of going to be just a deal between the UK and Germany um but what were the EU proposing what has starma rejected well I mean the first thing to say is that I think the reason why the European commission came out with its proposal when it did which was just after the local elections here if you remember was because they were worried in Brussels that members individual member states were going to run off and do a deal with us behind their backs and in a sense they tried to preempt that by saying actually let's do this on European basis because the conservative government pre-election had been Keen to talk to the French the Dutch the Spanish uh and to pick off individual member states so the the commission published a proposal The Proposal was for visas of I think up to four years for young people to come here to work or study there were some quite controversial bits for instance talking about non-discrimination when it came to University fees that is to say saying you European students should pay domestic fees to come to our universities which isn't going to down going to go down too well with our universities I can assure you uh one of the interesting reactions of the St government since coming into Power has been to absolutely blank this I mean ministers have been asked about this St has been asked about it in Parliament and his response was rather weird we are not returning to freedom of movement Now Youth Mobility isn't freedom of movement not least because the scheme being talked about involves visas and freedom of movement doesn't but it does seem to me as if the government at the moment at least is trying to brush this off and say actually youth Mobility is not something we are particularly keen on negotiating at the moment that of course might change particularly if it becomes obvious that the European Union expects something on youth mobility in order for us to be able to talk about the things that we want to be able to talk about why wouldn't they want to sign up to something like a youth Mobility scheme you mentioned there sort of fees for universities obviously universities want to charge people international fees where they have the chance because they're much higher um in terms of Labor shortages in certain sections I don't think people really did vote for brexit because there were too many you know Spanish people in their mid 20s coming to work in the UK I mean maybe you've got a different perspective but why would this be something that K starmer is so opposed to I think it's the politics I think it's a fear of a political backlash if it's seen that lots of Europeans are coming into the UK labor market that's the only thing I can think about that is uh behind this and of course while Spanish University students might want to come over here and uh work in bars or in restaurants or whatever for a short amount of time I think the fear is that you'll get some people from other member states who might want to come over here and do fruit picking which you know is more related if you like to the kinds of reasons why people might have voted for brexit now I'm not making a comment here on whether the fears that I think lie behind this are well founded or not but I think that the starma government is very very keen to avoid any kind of political bun fight over brexit which is making them Ultra cautious at the moment whether it's cautiousness or something else some of it does seem I mean maybe ideological I mean arasmus the the government have said we won't go back into the arasmus scheme now for our viewers who aren't sort of familiar with this this means that University students can go and study at a European University for for a few months or or a year um most people who do it speak very positively about it um I think polling shows that you know people really aren't particularly opposed to was rejoining arasmus why has the UK said we won't rejoin even sort of a scheme as anod as that well I mean two things I mean firstly the British government hasn't actually said we won't the British government has said we have no plans uh and that is about as ambiguous as you can get so I think there might well be progress on that down the line this isn't this hasn't by any manner of means been ruled out as to why well again I can't read the minds of government ministers it does seem to me though that they're Keen to respond to what they interpret as being part of the rationale behind brexit is that you know freedom of movement and things like that work very well for professional affluent University attending people who get all the perks of things like Erasmus or Mutual recognition of qualifications for lawyers or academics and are Keen to deliver for the group of people they call ordinary working people now there's an open question as to who ordinary working people are but I think there is a kind of sensitivity around this to be seen to be not going back to this sort of scheme of signing up to things to help some people in society and a perception that it will be seen as sort of going back on some of the things that brexit was inspired by obviously how K starm sort of framed this in Berlin today and how he's sort of been framing his policy in general is this is all about growth you know his overriding priority is economic growth that's why he's in Berlin that's why he's speaking to these um European leaders and I wanted to get your sense of how significant relations with Europe are going to be when it comes to to getting Britain growing again well let's go through this in order I think any agreement he comes to in the treaty with Germany about investment or issues around public procurement will be important but aren't going to be gamechanging in any way shape or form when it comes to UK growth uh the numbers involved I think are still probably quite trivial actually much the same can be said of the things that labor has said in its Manifesto it does want to negotiate with the European Union it's talks about three things a veteranary agreement making life easier for touring artists and mutual recognition of professional qualifications they're all important for certain sectors and a Veterinary agreement will help smooth the wrinkles on the Great Britain Northern Ireland border but again in none of these areas even if K starma gets what he wants and that is an if it's not certain that the EU is going to be willing to negotiate none of those are going really generate significant amounts of growth in the UK economy the two parts of a relationship with the European Union that are significant when it comes to growth are the Customs Union and particularly the single market and of course the issue there is that K St has repeatedly ruled out any moves back towards either of those things so the areas where there is growth to be had are areas that have been ruled out in advance what's your sense as to how much this matters I suppose you know you've said what starmer is willing to negotiate is somewhat trivial if we had a government that was saying you know we want to go back into the single Market we want to go back into the Customs Union say perhaps in four or five years time labor are feeling a bit Bolder and at the next general election they say you know this time we are going to have a really serious pro-european agenda how much difference would that make for sort of Britain's growth potential well I mean economists as economists do disagree on the scale of the economic impact of brexit I mean our own estimates put it at around two two to 3% of GDP so there are significant economic gains to be had it should be I mean it should be said though there are as always with brexit significant tradeoffs if you want to be in the single Market you have to accept freedom of movement you have to accept payments to the EU budget and if a country chooses to be in the single market and not a member State like Norway for instance then you're in a position of basically largely accepting rules decided on by why EU members without having a vote on them themselves being a rule taker across the board in other ways and for some people that is just a step too far we've been talking about starmer's meeting with Schultz that's where they had this sort of public press conference he's also having a private meeting with macron a little bit later this evening um what are they going to be talking about much the same things I think I mean I find it hard to believe they won't be talking about Ukraine and European security I mean the war in Ukraine coupled with a sense that the US is a less reliable protector than it used to be has got all Europeans worrying a bit more about security and what more they can do to assure their own security and I suspect that there will be a conversation about small boats as well because kmer is very keen to get all the help he can from European governments in trying to tackle the issue of small boats I mean it's an open question as to whether increasing intelligence and data sharing between European governments will make much difference but I think for the moment at least he's hoping that that will help him make some progress when it comes to small boats I think they're the two key issues that will be on the agenda and maybe the broader economic relationship with the European Union as well again on on small boats my understanding is that sort of the game Cher would be if Kier starma said we're willing to do a returns agreement with the European Union where we will take some Asylum Seekers from the continent if you allow us to sort of automatically turn people back and when they try and cross the channel to France or sort of automatically Deport people to to France when they've come across the channel is that your understanding as well that that would be the thing that would make the difference um but K ster has also ruled that out I mean personally I think a game changer would be for Europeans together uh us plus other member states to open up safe and legal routes for these Asylum Seekers to apply for Asylum I think that would be the one obvious step that can be taken to stop people making their deadly Crossing across either the Mediterranean or the channel I think when it comes to a returns agreement it's worth bearing in mind that immigration and Asylum are very live political issues in most if not all European States and so the idea that they will take from us more than we're willing to take in return I think is a rather heroic assumption given the politics in all those countries so there'll be some very very hard bargaining about numbers now it might be the case I don't know whether it is or not that if we if you assume that we're getting 50 to 60,000 people crossing in small boats annually I think that's about the number uh it might be that the British people is willing to accept slightly more than that through a regularized deal with the European Union if the boats stop uh but that I don't know and that's a bit of a gamble but I think there will be some really difficult talks to be had about numbers with the European Union because I find it hard to believe that the Italians or the Spanish or the French would really agree to take people back if we weren't taking significant numbers for our part Israel Raids West Bank as well Israel is already fighting on two fronts waged a war on Gaza for almost 11 months and killed over 40,000 Palestinians meanwhile in Northern Israel the IDF is battling Hezbollah a conflict that has intensified since the assassination of a Hezbollah commander in Beirut last month but that doesn't seem to be enough for prime minister Benyamin netanyahu's government with the country now intensifying its military presence on a third front and that's because the IDF has begun conducting raids in free cities in the occupied West Bank in the largest offensive in the region in over two decades the assault began in the early hours of Wednesday morning with drones striking um Targets in the cities of Janine tulam and tubas at least 11 people were killed according to the Palestinian Health Ministry Israeli military vehicles have also been seen stopping medical responders from reaching those injured in the raid and large numbers of Israeli troops have reportedly blocked access to Major hospitals in janid the Palestinian Health Ministry has said that eight Palestinians in injured overnight have been unable to be evacuated bulldozers and other engineering vehicles have entered Janine with reportedly the IDF using them uh to raise roads and other essential infrastructure meanwhile all three cities have reportedly been placed under siege with residents forced to stay indoors under threet of a sniper fire and the IDF conducting ID checks speaking to Middle East I Janine resident shafa Sabbat said this the number of military vehicles storming engine is very large the three main hospitals are besieged and all the streets leading to the city are closed with dirt barriers we have not witnessed an incursion this extensive for a long time and it seems that it will continue for several days military sources have told heret that the focus of the raid um was a network suspected of being behind a suicide bombing last week in t aiv in that incident the person carrying the bomb was killed and one passer by was injured in a statement hamas's military Wing called the bombing a retaliation for Israel's policy of massacres and assassinations the West Bank raids on Wednesday morning came soon after drone strikes on Monday um targeted at the city of tulan the Israeli strikes killed six Palestinians including two children as according to the Ministry of Health and the IDF says it was targeting the command center of a terror cell in a separate attack on Monday a Palestinian man was shot dead and free up injured by Israeli settlers near Bethlehem after they attacked homes in a Palestinian Village while last night's raids mark an intensification of Israel's attacks on the West Bank there by no means new since the 7th of October 128 Palestinians including 26 children have been killed just by air strikes on the territories in total over 600 Palestinians have been killed in the West Bank and occupied East Jerusalem since Israel began its Onslaught on Gaza now remember Hamas plays no role in the governance of those areas in fact they are ostensibly under the control of the Palestinian Authority a spokesperson for the Palestinian Authority president mmud abas has said the latest Israeli incursion will quote lead to dire and dangerous results for which everyone will pay the price and in response to the overnight attacks Hamas has called for quote a general mobilization against the occupation and its settlers everywhere on their occupied land the IDF has described nine of those killed today as quote armed terrorists who posed a threat to Security Forces um others including those in the West Bank might call them members of the Palestinian resistance against Israeli occupation and the IDF says the raids are necessary to control what it describes as iran-backed Terror cells embedded in civilian areas and that's a claim of course straight out of Israel's Gaza Playbook earlier this month the former head of the IDS Operations Division said this about the growth of Palestinian resistance in the West Bank it's like a cancer it's spreading there's no doubt that the intensity in Samaria is now equal or even more than the intensity of the war in Gaza definitely we're not controlling the escalation over there it's a 100% Iranian effort to build a proxy in Samaria now Samaria is Israel's term for areas of the West Bank it wants to reclaim and of course it's completely ridiculous to say it's 100% an Iranian effort to build a proxy what happens when you illegally occupy people expand your settlements they're kicking out of their homes while bombing and killing um you know their fellow uh countrymen right is is people resist you don't need some Outsider boogey men to sort of make sense of that um Israel's foreign minister Israel cats has also suggested an aspect of the idf's Gaza war strategy should now be turned on the West Bank tweeting this earlier today the IDF is working intensively from tonight in the Janine and tcom refuge camps to fought Islamic Iranian terrorist infrastructures that have been established there Iran is working to establish an Eastern terrorist front against Israel in the West Bank according to the Gaza and Lebanon model by financing and arming terrorists and smuggling Advanced weapons from Jordan we must deal with the threat just as we deal with the terrorist infrastructure in Gaza including the temporary evacuation of Palestinian residents and whatever steps are required this is a war for everything and we must Win It Again these are just terrorists all backed by Iran these are people who don't like being illegally occupied and kicked from their homes because of their ethnicity uh people don't tend to consent to ethnic cleansing us-based Middle East policy analyst Omar badar told Al jazer that Israel's strategy is transparent Israel has been intending to Annex and ethnically cleanse huge parts of the West Bank for a very very long time and in fact has been actively doing that in slow motion and I think that they saw an opportunity given that the world is distracted by the hor that Israel is unleashing on Gaza to kind of escalate in the West Bank and so what we've seen over the past several months is more than 650 Palestinians being killed by Israeli soldiers and settlers throughout the West Bank in any other context this would be a crisis that everybody would be talking about but only in the shadow of the genocide that Israel is unleashing on Gaza has this kind of passed without people really paying attention and naturally whenever you see this kind of violence unfold there's going to be resistance to it and in some cases violent resistance as well and now Israel sees itself as somehow compelled to launch this military operation seemingly under this delusion that has been disproven over and over again that you can somehow kill and torture and maim and imprison and suppress and oppress Palestinians into some kind of Victory out of all this but this is really the same tape being played over and over again and it's a recipe that will lead to endless violence and bloodshed until there is a fundamental change in Israel's attitude towards Palestinians the us has responded today to the increased violence in the West Bank by putting a handful of new settler groups on its sanctions list as usual the real culprits are the Israeli government faed no consequences this so this is all just the result of this few these few extremist groups it's got nothing to do with the official state policy of the Israeli government who explicitly want a greater Israel and to kick all the Palestinians out of their homes an next the Westbank no it's it's just it's a small group of extremist who we've got to sanction obviously there's been sort of violence in the West Bank I mean well for ades but intensified since October the 7th but sort of these drone strikes it does seem like Israel just want to intensify everywhere all the time that seems to be the strategy yeah I mean what Omar said there is so important and I think it's it's a fact that's so missing from a lot of Western media discourse on this issue is that everything we're seeing now in the West Bank and in Gaza is in is it's a intensification of the pursuit of longstanding isra goals um the primary goals of Israel since the nag for the last 76 years which is um maximum land minimum Palestinians um and I feel like even you know quite Pro Palestinian sympathetic people often use this framewor where they talk about the genocide in Gaza and potentially even the violence in the West Bank as a Revenge Collective punishment of civilians for the actions of the Armed factions um and though I don't doubt that revenge is an emotional driver um probably for some of the more s you know particularly sadistic violence from Individual soldiers um and that is an established Colonial thing as well that um Colonial Powers will respond to and any armed Uprising any violence from the oppressed population with u massively disproportionate violence and in Israel that's obviously um formalized as the diod doctrine um which is named after a um a neighborhood in bayut uh that the IDF um obliterated in 2006 um this either idea that we respond to any armed resistance with massively disproportionate violence against the infrastructure of the civilian population but I think Beyond this idea of Revenge what Israel has actually done is seing an opportunity to exacerbate and intensify its pursuit of this agenda it's been pursuing the whole time I think um you know after October the 7th there was an enormous outpouring of public sympathy internationally for Israel and partly based on the actual facts of what happened you know there was people were killed civilians were killed people were kidnapped but also based on you know untr things that were put out this idea of 40 beheaded babies that turned out to be completely fabricated um this idea of systematic use of sexual violence as a weapon of War by Al casam that hasn't been substantiated um and it's just taken the opportunity while the public you know while the international public was sympathetic while America was vowing to support support them very strongly um to scale up what it was already doing um so that is you know the genocidal violence in Gaza cutting off food and water carpet bombing sniping toddlers um but also what's happening in the West Bank where Hamas isn't in control and the um Palestinian Authority that is in control has been very compliant and really subservient to the Israeli occupation um so that's an intensification of settler violence where settlers will come and attack a Palestinian Village they'll be accompanied by the igf um and the igf soldiers would just watch and if the Palestinians try and fight back they'll Point their guns at them it's um increas formal eviction orders EV evicting Villages evicting people from the houses in East Jerusalem um it's also a transfer of legal Powers um from the military to um proetus civil servants which is sort of a formalization of permanent Annex annexation uh which is a headache for the US actually because the US has always maintained this idea that a two-state solution is just around the corner you know the the occupation's temporary we working on a solution and in recent decades the Israeli government has become less and less interested in even maintaining that illusion I mean it doesn't it doesn't pretend at all really but this transfer of legal powers and just really formalizes the idea that we're taking this it's permanent there there is no two-state solution um but also it has been an increase in outright military aggression air strikes treating the West Bank more like Gaza despite the fact it um Hamas aren't in control and Al and you know now today um the biggest military operation in the West Bank since 2002 I think it is um now when I say that Hamas aren't in control in the West Bank as you said that doesn't mean there's not armed factions in the West Bank um but I just want to quote the Australian IJ judge Charlesworth uh comments he made in the recent um icj case on on the occupation he said under customary international law the population in the occupied territory does not owe allegiance to the occupying power and is not precluded from using force in accordance with international law to resist the occupation therefore the fact that the population in the occupied Palestinian territory resorts to force to resist the occupation does not in itself justify the maintenance by Israel of its occupation so basically what that means is there's quite a strong International legal basis for um Palestinian armed resistance uh within the bounds of you know the laws of War uh whereas this this idea of you know Israel's right to self-defense which we hear quoted everywhere is actually not true in a legal sense um as as an occupying power Israel doesn't have the right to um military action in self-defense um and another thing the icj case um confirmed recently is that Israel is as well as being the occupying power in the West Bank and East Jerusalem where has more of a physical presence it's also the occupying power in Gaza because it controls the borders it controls the airspace it maintains the Civil registry it uses constant surveillance drones to monitor what people are doing to the point that people in Gaza say that basically it's just a Perpetual noise in the air um so so yeah I I just feel like um this this context is so absent from most mainstream discussion of this issue and it's actually really hard to without a concerted effort to access the kinds of information that allows you to actually understand what's happening sometimes uh Israelis will will say it on camera as well we we're going to show you a clip in a moment of course illegal Israeli settlers have increasingly encroached on Palestinian land in the occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem often with the active support of the Israeli government around half a million now live in the West Bank with a further 200,000 in East Jerusalem now some are turning their eyes to Gaza so in a recent Channel 4 report sanii got an insight into the mind of one Israeli settler hoping to make a home in post genocide Gaza um Ariel moved to Israel seven years ago from Texas the idea of you coming from America to here settling in potentially in Gaza kicking Palestinians out a lot of people would see that is settler colonialism it's not really um colonialism it's a return um my grandparents were kicked out of Israel by um Arabs who were trying to establish a Palestinian stand they they had to leave for their survival and I'm just coming back and fulfilling their dream uh that would be the first thing the second thing is I think that and I know this is a minority view I think ISM gets a bad rap like genocide is bad but colonizing places that are genocidal and they have bad ideology it's good to come in and correct their views what do you think should happen to the people who are already in Gaza so I think that there's a couple of possibilities um the one that I think is the most realistic is we got to help ask other countries for help I know that Spain was willing to take a couple of million I know Russia said they would take a couple of thousand a lot of people that would sound like you're advocating for ethnic cleansing um and don't think so because Palestinian isn't an ethnicity it's an ideology and it's an ideology that says that they want Jews dead and so we want them as far away from Jews as possible wow she come over from Texas she's saying Palestines aren't an ethnicity they're just an ideology we want them as far away as possible and I think that really you know I mean all of that was shocking you know everything she said was really shocking but the thing that really stood out was her saying Colonial M gets a bad rap what that really reminded me of Tony jut he's a sort of historian um of the 20th century and he said the problem with Israel or Israel's problem is that it came too late um it's a project from the 19th century or the 18th century that's attempting to build a state in the 20th century and Abby I think that's sort of what really stood out to me there because what what that lady there was saying would have been really normal for you know a European in say the 19th century or the 18th century who was colonizing not North America or Australia or wherever that is that would have been completely normal um but the problem for Israel uh and why it can't get sort of international support Beyond Elites in certain countries is that we've moved on right we don't do that anymore but she's saying no let's bring colonialism back the thing that we need to understand about what that woman was saying is that she's not a fringe extremist she is basically articulating the fundamental ideas that underpin the entire Zionist project she she represents the state of you know she represents the state of Israel she she's saying what Netanyahu thinks she's saying what the majority of elected politicians in Israel think she's saying it you know a little bit more crudely I I think there's at least certain politicians who wouldn't want to say colonialism gets a bad rap um but that's that's what the project is it's what made part of the um IH definition of anti-semitism seem so ludicrous and you know this definition that was pushed as just the only definition something something we had to accept something you were anti-semitic if you didn't accept um part of that definition was denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination e EG by claiming that the existence of a state of Israel is a racist Endeavor um is anti-Semitic and I I think it's one thing to believe the you know we have to deal with the solution the situation as it is now whatever injus injustices happen 76 years ago however many people were forced out right now we have two populations and in your opinion the best option for those populations living in relative peace is a two-state solution it's quite another thing to say that anyone who disagrees with that anyone who thinks actually the historical Injustice matters is actually the nagba you know needs to be accounted for actually refugees should be allowed to return which would end the existence of Israel as a Jewish State um just because there are about seven million registered Palestinian refugees um internationally at the moment and most of those are in Jordan some in Lebanon Syria uh I think about 1.3 million people in Gaza are registered as refugees just under a million in the West Bank if all of those people were allowed to return to um within the 1967 borders So within like the official formal borders of the state of Israel that it's not respected for a long time anyway um then um the population would no longer be majority Jewish because there's already two two million-ish Palestinian citizens of Israel um so it wouldn't be a Jewish State um so the idea that believing that Palestinian refugees and their descendants should have the right to return from where their first were is anti-Semitic it's just not tenable um and actually the recent icg opinion on the um occupation was really significant in this regard because it um the entire court not just an individual judge um endorsed right of return for all Palestinian refugees um nacra victims and their descendants to the place they came from um so that is de facto an endorsement of the end of Israel as a Jewish ethnos State the only possible conclusion to that is a pluralistic mixed you know Jewish and Palestinian State this is one of the reasons that Israel and Israel Advocates really have it in for um unrwa um you know they attempted to cut off funding they um made some claims about um unwa um employees participating in the um incursion on the 7th of October that weren't substantiated um but they see that us agency as keeping the idea of right to return alive because it registers Palestinian NRA victims and their descendants as refugees this is the true face of Israel and a lot of effort is put into kind of hiding that and confusing people about that but people need to understand that this is what they're supporting yeah I want to go to um that that quote by Tony J that I mentioned earlier because I do come back to it quite a lot the problem with Israel in short is not as is sometimes suggested that is an European Enclave in the Arab world but rather that it arrived too late it has imported a characteristically late 19th century separatist project into a world that has moved on a world of individual rights Open Frontiers and international law the very idea of a Jewish State a state in which Jews and the Jewish religion have exclusive privileges from which non-jewish citizens are forever excluded is rooted in another time and place Israel in short is an anachronism I always think about that when people say you're treating Israel differently yeah we are treating Israel differently to how the United States was was treated in well the settlers in the United States were treated in the 18th or 17th century we're not really treating it differently to how we treat other states in the 20th and 21st century you you can't say we want to follow the rules that we had 300 years ago and sort of expect people to go along with it the abolition of the Reeves VS Winter Fuel Allowance winter fuel allowance has caused a political headache for the labor party this was treasury Minister James Murray getting grilled by Victoria darash on news night can I read you this email from one of our viewers it's from a woman who says she's very concerned and extremely distressed on behalf of her dad about your government's decision to cut the winter fuel payments to pensioners she says my father is almost 80 he receives the state pension but just misses out on the requirement for pension credit my father's worked for the NHS diligently for years paid his taxes and even selflessly did some part-time work for the NHS during the covid pandemic the winter fuel payments were a Lifeline for him these past years when the cost of living went up and they helped him get by during the winter where is the Justice or Humanity in taking away this Lifeline for my father well that's obviously a very difficult situation um and I can understand um that the daughter of the the gentleman in question wants to raise her concerns and you know it's important that we hear them but I think there's no getting away from the fact that we are going to have to take difficult decisions not not as difficult as a pensioner might have to make this winter when they choose between Heating and eating well we're making sure we protect the triple lock for pensioners and so that will protect the St that's not going to help that's not going to help This Woman's Dad if we have a situation where we don't have Secure Public finances if we haven't got the public finances back on a better footing that will impact pensioners along with everyone else so what would your advice be to this 80-year-old who just misses out on the eligibility for pension credit when it comes to paying his energy bills this winter well I'm not going to give advice for a specific person without because I don't want to get into specifics of one personation sure don't but this is exactly the effect your government's policy is having on specific individuals what I would say to them though what I would say to the the gentleman and his daughter is that I realize that the decision we've taken is a difficult one I realize that it's a tough choice that we've had to take I realize that it will have an impact that's James Murray treasury Minister repeating the labor line that these were difficult decisions they didn't want to make them they were forced to make them and that was a statement that had already been made by government Minister and the Chancellor's sister Ellie Reeves earlier that day when we got into government just a few weeks ago uh we discovered that there was a 22 billion black hole in the country's finances and it it's that which has led to that really tough decision uh around the winter fuel allowance we didn't want to be a position where we had to make that decision but because of the state of the finances that we were left with that it was a decision that that had to be made so that was Ellie Reeves going out to bat for the decision made by her sister we didn't want to do this we had to do this if you're angry about the winter fuel allowance being made means tested don't be angry at USS be angry at the government before us who made us do this this morning um we heard from Rachel Reeves herself we were left a 22 billion pound black hole for this year in the public finances those are numbers and that was spending covered up by the previous conservative government who during the election campaign made more unfunded commitment we cannot carry on like this and so it's not a decision I wanted to make but it was a decision that I had to make in incredibly challenging circumstances to put our public finances on a firm fitting so Rachel Reeves exact words there were it's not a decision I wanted to make but it's a decision that I had to make in very challenging circumstances now you can see how that statement makes political sense of course no government would want to harm pensioners no government would want to take away uh the winter fuel allowance from our older Generations but there was simply no choice and by the way this wasn't in the labor Manifesto because labor were hit with a shocking Tory made fiscal black hole that they couldn't possibly foreseen because it was hidden from them it's it's a good story to tell don't blame us blame the people before us we didn't want to do this this was a a total surprise and it was forced on us there is a problem with that story though this was Rachel Reeves then Shadow work and pension secretary talking about the winter fuel payment back in 2014 We're the Party who have said that we would cut the winter fuel allowance for the richest pensioners we're the party that said we would means test that benefit to save money something which on the other side of the house you haven't supported so the reality is We're the Party who are willing to take tough decisions to get the welfare bill down so Rachel Rees doesn't often sound that enthusiastic right she doesn't often sound that passionate about stuff she often sounds you know very I'm very severe I'm just doing this because I'm a bureaucrat D there she seemed like she was really couldn't wait to get rid of the wi fuel payment at least for well for your pensioners 10 years later she's done it so she's been this is been motivating her for 10 years you know she's she battled the the Corbin leadership she sort of fought for a k starm a government just so she could get its power to finally finally means test the winter fuel payment for pensioners um AB me do do do you think this is the the sort of culmination of of Rachel ree's life ambition and she's finally done it she's got rid of the universal WID to fuel payment for for older Britains you know what it is so frustrating because this is what the labor right is it's what the labor right has always been um it's what they've been advocating pretty much since the financial crash because they have no other Solutions because other sorts of solutions would involve acknowledging what new labor were doing wrong before the financial crash um I mean you and me both know this is what they are we know that the reason we wanted Corbin to be elected leader despite him in you know in many respects not being a natural leadership um leadership Choice well you know being a very active backbencher a very active campaigning MP but not necessarily a natural obvious figurehead is because in 2016 Harriet Harmon as caretaker leader um whipped labor MPS to abstain on the um welfare reform and work act 2016 uh which reduced the benefit cap um and this is in the context of you know massive am miseration of um people who relying on benefits fat families and people who can't work already um and yeah it's what it's what they do and it's been driving me mad recently I don't know if you've seen this but the um Economist Danny blanchflower who actually in the runup to the election signed a letter saying you know labor under starma has has the solution labor has a plan um has been holding his hands up and saying they've got no plan you know they're making things worse why why don't they have a plan PE people have said to him um but you endorse this and he said Oh I thought they had a secret plan you know I was I was expecting they had a plan for growth and it's just it's just infuriating because because from the perspective of um you know anyone like the many of us who were involved in um advocating for labor under Corbin trying to elect a labor government under left leadership it's like you thought us tooth and nail to get back to this this was like this was like the primary disagreement we wanted to abandon this we didn't think it had to be like this and you you wanted to smash us um and now here we are and a lot of people who you know Fel it felt like ideological opponents for many years are holding their hands off and saying I never wanted this so what what what what what was that all about then yeah I mean it hasn't been a secret right because people were saying oh yeah there's nothing that interesting in the manifesto but what they really want to do is it invest in a green economy and maybe sort of tax the rich around the edges but they'll probably will do something on capital gains in a couple of months but the first things they did after the election were the things that Rachel has told us she wanted to do 10 years ago they've been very consistent on it which is anything that's Universal get rid of it uh means test it now you know I'm I'm sure that in in certain contexts means testing is is appropriate I know there are tradeoffs when it comes to all of these questions but this does this does seem to be not just sort of a a decision that was forced on the labor party but actually The Guiding philosophy the sort of glue which holds it all together is Rachel ree's long-standing desire to means test the winter fuel allowance Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump is Absurd Trump Campaign Grift busy trying to win the White House in this November's election but if you thought that would be a full-time job think again because Trump has found the time to keep up a side hustle hello everyone this is your favorite President Donald J Trump with some very exciting news by popular demand I'm doing a new series of trump digital trading cars you all know what they are we've had a lot of fun with them it's called the America First collection 50 all new stunning digital trading cards it's really something these cards show me dancing and even beh holding some Bitcoins these cards show me dancing and even holding some Bitcoins right this guy wants to be the most powerful person in the world American president and he's got the time to just sort of sell these personal cards they're not even real they're digital cards right so you're buying a a digital item for $99 I mean this is a real grift right and this guy this is the kind of thing you should do after you lose I mean it's it's not you should never do this never use your Fame to try and sell people digital trading cards for $99 but if you are going to do that at least do it you know after you've lost the presidential election or you you know after you've won it served for four years and then done it afterwards normally when you sort of try and you know they they do the speech rounds don't they after becoming a president where they go speak to JP Morgan and they try and monetize their Fame like it's a bit it's always a little bit sort of go but fine you know Obama's got his contract with Spotify or whatever but trying to to sell digital trading cards in the middle of a presidential election is I I do think this is somewhat unprecedented um and this isn't Trump's first time at the the digital Trading Card Rodeo um he first launched his nft playing cards in uh December 2022 back then he sold out a collection of 44,000 cards in just two days so he's a you know he's got he's a successful businessman like last time around the new cards are selling for $99 each and Trump is going the extra mile for his customers here's the best part I'm doing great things for my trump digital card collectors first there's the real physical Trump cards purchase 15 or more of my trump digital trading cards and will mail you a beautiful physical trading card it's really I think quite something each physical trading card has an authentic piece of my suit that I wore for the presidential debate and people are calling it The Knockout suit I don't know about that but that's what they're calling it so we'll cut up The Knockout suit and you're going to get a piece of it and we'll be randomly autographing five of them a true collector's item this is something to give your family your kids your grandchildren something to give your grandchildren this is a rectangle from the the the suit that Donald Trump wore when he was debting Joe Biden before he dropped out and you have to buy 15 digital cards before you get one physical card it's a good you know it's supposed to be you have to pay $1,500 for one trading card um collectors who buy 75 of the digital cards will also get a dinner um with the former president you might be able to change some policies that's the only one that might be good value right if if he does win the presidential election you could probably get a pardon just by by having dinner with the guy so if you're in sort of legal trouble and maybe buying 75 of these digital cards does make sense of course if you you've got the capital to make that happen um it does of course all seem a little desperate and on the topic of desperation uh this was a wild claim Trump made in an interview this week in California you have people getting seven ballots democrats for instance I Look at California I gave a speech I had so I had a crowd so big I said there's no way I could lose California but automatically they mark it down if you're a republican as a loss that you lose by 5 million votes I said 5 million votes I guarantee if Jesus came down and was the vote counter I would win California okay in other words if we had an honest vote counter a really honest vote counter I do great with the Hispanics great I mean at a level that no Republicans ever done but if we had an honest vote counter I would win California if Jesus counted the votes in California he would win now that's obviously a very worrying statement it's funny it's ridiculous but it is worrying because it means that even if Donald Trump does lose the election which is definitely not guaranteed by the way he could win I mean fair and square is an odd way of putting it he probably won't win the popular vote but he could he could win in a constitutional manner by getting enough votes to win the electoral college but I suppose those kinds of interventions make it seem unlikely that he would accept defeat even if he um did uh lose the Electoral College because if he thinks that a fair vote would give him California then he must think that a fair vote would give him every single state in the United States because California is pretty much as as safe as it gets for the Democrats um Trump's campaign then um seems to be going off the rails Harris has momentum even she though isn't exuding confidence more than a month after replacing Biden as the presumptive Democratic nominee she has yet to give a sitdown interview um that will change tomorrow when she sits down with CNN but a condition of the interview was that she'd need to be accompanied by her pick for Vice president so Tim Waltz so sort of not being willing to be interviewed on your own when you want to be commander-in-chief not a great look however um trying to sell digital trading cards with bits of your suit cut up it's definitely more disqualifying than that Abby I know you you were living in America for a while weren't you under the first Trump presidency basically like three years right in the middle of it um so yeah I I think we've been through a nor elections referend where liberals have thought they had it in the bag only to be humiliated um to to not completely um count out Trump but at the same time I think it's so obvious he's basically given up as soon as it wasn't Biden anymore and he had an opponent who could string a sentence together you could tell that his heart just wasn't in anymore I think he just wants to get it over with go back to being a showman being a businessman ringing as much money out of the whole thing as he can do um I mean I I don't even think he seemed to enjoy being president that much when he actually was um I don't know if you remember that quot when he was at a rally um I can't remember where it was but um he was talking to his audience and he was he was like by the way nice trucks uh you think I could hop into one of them and just drive away um I'd love to just drive the hell out of here and it's just it's just so obvious that he he thought he wanted it but when it comes down to it he just wants to have his nice life um and yeah he's he's trying to make a little bit of money on the way out but also who knows I I I don't want to be on record saying that Harris has it in the bag and just look silly so in 2016 I remember sort of people saying Donald Trump does he even want to win the presidency is he just doing this to build brand Donald Trump um and I suppose maybe that was the case and he did win by accident but again when he lost in 2020 he wasn't exactly happy to just go and you know make I mean he was making money off the brand but he also wanted to bring down American democracy with him uh Super Chat uh great to see you Michael and MOA at Massive Attack event um on uh Sunday um amazing guests like Grace bakeley and very moving interviews with Amat uh al- nauk and Motas Aiza um it was really great um to be at that Massive Attack concert speaking to such brilliant guests um hopefully some of those will be up on our YouTube um in the coming days um for now thank you Abby so much for joining me tonight it's been a pleasure having you back on Nara media thank you for having me it's been fun and thank you everyone for watching this evening this show will be back on tomorrow whatever day that is Thursday presumably you've been watching nvar media good night