RMC Briefing: Faith groups' response to Grenfell Tower fire showed the "best in humanity"

today's religion Media Center briefing is on the reported to the granel tower fire in West London in which 72 people died this was in June 2017 the report was a devastating critique calling out systematic dishonesty Decades of failure by the government and uh the way that commercial interests were put above building safety and within the seven volume report it describes the substantial involvement of faith and Community organizations which provided sanctuary and support at the time and it described this as the best in humanity it also highlighted the way that Muslims felt ignored by the council particularly as the event happened during Ramadan so joining us to discuss the report we have Bishop Graham Tomlin the former Bishop of Kenington Abdu Roman say the CEO of al-mana the Muslim cultural and Center the Reverend Alan Everett the former Vicor of St clemens's Church in noting Hill and author of a book after the fire which he wrote about his experiences of dealing with the tragedy and there are various other uh contributors on the call I know who want to get involved in the discussion as we go but first of all Alan I wonder if I could start with you you were the Vicor of St clemens's Church noing Hill which was around the corner from the gfel town I believe and you were woken in the night on Wednesday the 14th of June 2017 and you went into the church and you described that nobody knew what the extent was of the fire when you went into the church I wonder if you could tell us as you read the report or have read snatches of it in the papers today was there anything in the way that the report told a story that surprised you about its conclusions of the extent of the failures uh not at all I um I I think those of us who were involved are very pleased that the reports conclusions seem to be so thorough and no it is it is a devastating indictment of the factors that led up to the fire um from my perspective as the parish priest and Parish priest at the time completely accurate were you waiting for the report to be written were you amongst those who said they were waiting for it so that they could begin to start the grieving process was there anything s significant for you about the fact that it's been uh published for the first time I have to be honest and say I left the parish after two years I left in 2019 and um so my direction involvement has gradually declined over the years um and now retired and I think what's surprising for me was just and and I'm speaking obviously from somebody who's speaking at some distance now from events and um was just what a difficult day yesterday was it was a very important day and yes um people have been waiting for a very very long time the weight has been extremely painful um and but there was uh for me and I'm sure for many other P there was a huge feeling of relief that at last the report has come out and that it has been so comprehensive and um of course that raises all sorts of questions about the next steps but at least we now have a statement which fully encapsulates um the the the terrible things that have happened leading us to the fire and that the um appalling complicity across so many organizations including govern in in the events that led up to the fire and the appalling mismanagement of the fire um directly afterwards the the consequences of the file thank you can I bring in Abdu Roman s the CEO of am of the Muslim cultural heritage center in nosing hill now um R do you do you agree with uh what Alan has just said there was there a sense of anticipation for you waiting for this report to be written in a sense of relief that it has been published I think it's it's very important that it has been published and I do agree um it highlights some of the very important issues um that has been in the mind of everyone really because the failure was really witnessed right from the first hours of the fire and therefore it was not something that was um not known to the community and to those who were victimized by by the incident itself but it's good that it has been highlighted at this level and I hope the report would now lead to uh more steps in terms of addressing the issue of Justice because that is very much uh linked to closure or very many families they're waiting to see uh the upholding of of Justice especially uh around those who are uh responsible for for any kind of negligence that resulted in the deaths of so many lives that could have been um saved uh but this is not only about individuals it could also be around uh issues of institutional failures uh and I'm glad uh like institutions like the London fire brigade have taken steps they didn't wait for this report to come out and they've been trying to address uh the failures and also review uh their existing policies and procedures which is really good but we do hope that to happen also across the board including the local Authority and the national authorities when it comes to uh clouding and and the related issues um in terms of the uh final outcome I think uh the uh bid will still want to see uh more than just a report so what follows now is going to be really in the minds of everyone uh whether there will be any uh criminal prosecution and any highlighting of um uh the last seven years and if any of the issues have been addressed and so on by the institutions responsible for housing and housing management uh this all remains to be seen there were 80% of those who died were Muslims it said um and the report said that there was a feeling amongst the Muslim communities around grenfell that they've been abandoned by the local Authority and it was into this vacuum that the faith and Community organizations left do you recognize that feeling certainly there has been a feeling of neglect whether that is because they were 80% Muslims or because they were from a poorer uh part of the of the Kensington and Chelsea that could be quite subjective and it requires more um maybe evidence uh but in general the community of North Kensington which is economically one of the most most deprived areas in the UK has always felt the neglect so regardless of Faith or ethnicity there has been that feeling across the the community um the other issue is um the fire procedures that was in place um there were some complaints around it reports were made even before the fire but it did not it was not since the report has been published what's the response of um the Muslim Community near grifell would you say um do they feel abandoned still do they feel neglected or has this report addressed some of those concerns the feeling of neglect as I said it's across the board and it remains uh uh until we see some kind of Justice taking place and but also addressing the shortcomings of those days and prior to the fire uh have been addressed uh I think most of that are not are not have not been addressed so that that's one issue that um everyone feels about like unhappy and uncomfortable um in terms of uh the response to the report uh I think we're just uh the report has just been out since yesterday but the general feeling um there is still more to to be done uh this is not really the end yes the the phe two report of inquiry might be the final one but the case of Granville and the issue of uh negligence and other Associated issues uh have not been addressed yet so they need to be uh address it sooner or later but definitely there will be uh people waiting now to see um agencies like the police and others coming forward and uh taking uh the pieces from this report and then following it up through the legal process thank you um Bishop Graham Tomlin you were Bishop of Kensington at at the time of the fire and you were uh visible you were interviewed so many times by the media as in front of churches um with the community as volunteers rallied around um you've written already uh since the report has been published about its um you said it was devastating and brutal you said words like failure dishonesty misleading and defective sound like a tolling Bell I wonder if you on reflection looking at the report how do you view the overwhelming failures of every organization in society that no one put their hand up to voice any concern or stop any of this how do you explain that I think that is one of the remarkable things about the report I what say the report says nothing we didn't know already because it's been a public inquiry a lot of the evidence has been out in the public and so for many of those of us who've been following this story it doesn't say anything new but what it what it does do is it lays out in pretty very strong terms the kind of extent of the of the complicity of all kinds of organizations in this national government local government the construction industry the TMO uh everybody and I suppose my reflection on it is that it's kind of the way in which these things work it wasn't one individual one decision um and in some we kind of like to be able to do that sometimes to identify here's the one terrible person who caused this actually it was individuals caught up in a culture uh which had become systematic I mean as the report says it was incompetence dishonesty and and greed are ranging from incompetence at one level to active greed at the other and I suppose that the way I I interpret that is to say that that if again from a a Christian religious point point of view um Jesus spoke about the the two great Commandments to love God and to love our neighbor and what happens when you you actually displace those commands with other commands like you know to to increase market share for your company to maximize profit to um protect the reputation of your institution um and when the call to love your neighbor begins to get relegated in in in comparison to those things then this kind of culture begins to develop and so um it seems to be we've had a sort of system culture here of other things becoming more important than that simple call to to actively seek the welfare of our neighbor and this is what has happened as a result of it and I think something like this the the grvl tower fire the the report itself is a bit of a shock to the system um gives us the opportunity to to kind of think actually do we want this kind of culture in our society more generally it's a wider issue than just grall itself and so that's again some of the ways in which I try to make sense of it how would you achieve that I mean there talk at the moment about retribution punishment U manaugh of charges which may take a year or so to to come in you can't legislate for a change in society such as the one you just described exactly right I think it's it's a wider than just a political issue there are political aspects to it the report has extensive section at the end of recommendations which is going to take years possibly decades to kind of put into place and that needs to happen that we need to produce we need to move towards the kind of police investigation the crown prosecution Service uh that will presumably we expect bring about prosecutions and I think that's important not so much in terms of Retribution or Vengeance but in terms of a process of healing for those who have been affected by this it seems to there's a stage there's a kind of stage in which that healing takes place I mean I was earlier this year I was at a an event called the gral testimony week which is a remarkable time when survivors and bereaved families were invited to tell their story in the presence of Representative of the companies that were named yesterday companies like ionic and kingspan and celotex and oriden and what what struck me about that was that the the emotions are still very raw for those people it's really not healed at all and uh it seems to me that there's a an important process that having experience that that the telling of the truth is a important part of that healing and that's what we saw yesterday this sort of exercise in truth telling now there's then a process whereby um those who are guilty are made to face up to what they've done and hopefully um Express their own penitence of it there's then a process and beyond that of um of uh people finding some element of kind of feeling and peace as a result of it I think that can only come through um through the the telling of the truth of the establishment of justice and then finding peace and you can't get to peace without those things the telling of the truth and the finding of justice and this is a stage in the journey I think as AB Rahman has said it's not the end of it but I think it's important stage in that Journey at the time of the gfel there was a a massive collaborative effort amongst all the faith groups uh to help uh uh people who had nothing when they came out and I wonder if we could just talk about that for a moment here um the um the report said that the groups concerned were the best of humanity um and in a in a document such as you've been describing Bishop you know which was devastating and in its critique it was like a kind of of light to see that in towards the end of the of the volumes that this had been noted um I wonder if we could just talk about how that happened and what lessons you have as Faith leaders as to the the tips for uh Faithfully just trying to work together and collaboration or something like this I mean Alan for you when you described it in your book it just seemed like a gut instinct you didn't really know what you were going to expect you just drove towards it that's right and I was woken up um shortly before 3:00 in the morning and by a fellow priest who happen to live near the tower and we just walked out the road um reached St Clement's church around 3:00 in the morning and there it was the fire it was just Indescribable and the scale of it I couldn't really take it in it was so terrifying and so terrible so traumatic for those people who there were there were so many people who were transfixed who could not move away from this appalling sight how did you get in touch with all the other Faith leaders at the time you were there in your church was it were people Milling around in the street or were their phone calls what happened well nothing happened straight away because well the first thing uh did this this other priest Sean doy and myself is we tried to find an evacuation Center um we we walked around for a bit couldn't find one um so we wanted to join in with a broader effort but everything was very very um was very fragmented um there was palpable sense of chaos and disorientation on the streets so um I went back to the church which I previously opened I turned on the lights and opened the doors and um there were people already gathering in the church um people coming inol unteers bringing in water and food and people seeking shelter and and over the next hour or so the church became full and so our response I think each individual one of us in our different places were just really trying to respond to the situation that we found on the ground which was people flooding in and of course it was a combination of people seeking shelter absolutely but also it was volunteers so these um places these buildings these places of worship with their deep roots in the community became natural focal points receptacles really both for people in dire need but also people wanting to help and so really it's was just a question of navigating your way along with that with all that energy um and um we really didn't really have time to think about it and was it the same for you uh Adu Ramen at your um at your Center as well the same kind of exper experience cuz you you said you lived in was it you that lived in East London and then you drove across London not again not knowing what to expect and did people flood into your Center as well is that what happened absolutely that's exactly what happened um there was um first initially in fact um as father Alan said I tried to uh identify the the exact location of the building and then drove my car with loaded with water and dates because it was a fasting month for us so we were on the 19th month of the pting month uh so we I approached the Methodist uh Church there and it was a quite chaotic scene but also very heart- touching scene because people were coming really with whatever they had uh to donate uh and to give to those who who needed it um and then when I came back when I returned to my uh to our center for the almanar I found the same situation uh taking place at the almanar and U from that moment we just found ourselves being one of the four to five emergency centers in those days and it continued ever since then uh supporting and and working with the survivors um and the community at large in terms of bridging I think the only Bridge we had in those days were the hundreds if not thousands of volunteers who came from across communities ethnicities and faith and other uh affiliations um to the different uh centers to the four or five centers uh and then they would tell us what's going on in on the other on the other side and so on but they were the only really source of information apart from that there was a huge lack of uh coordination and and Leadership uh in those days so we had to really do whatever we can but thank God um The Help from the community the help from the volunteers the encouraging messages even from across the world I received messages from America and New Zealand you know these are very far places but also with different time zones uh so they were really calling and sending messages some of them even sending whatever they had the I remember one U retired sports reporter I think from America sent me a draft book of his own uh like writing um another person from Australia sent me a a cookbook um and and so on so this really kept us really motivated uh to do whatever we can uh regardless of the absence of leadership and coordination in those days how did you deal with that as a as a leader this is a very new environment for you never had anything on that scale before what were the challenges for you as a leader the uh first thing as as as a like someone who is Affiliated to Faith and I'm sure many of our faith leaders in fact all would agree uh the first priority for us was really to support uh the community that has been affected by by the fire so there wasn't any doubts about that or if and and when and so on we just opened our door and we welcomed and we did everything we can and I think with God blessing all these people like I was mentioning the volunteers uh came forward and help really young and old as well as men and women uh they their support was Monumental um the second thing as again as a manager um we had to adopt a crisis management U approach uh so we had to suspend uh many of our regular activities including spiritual ones uh to prioritize the support the provision of space and also the identifying of the needs uh because initially there was a talk about material needs like bues and toiletries and so on but we emotion the emotional need was not um something that we took account of immediately it took us a couple of weeks to uh to look into that and then set up a therapeutic counseling process massage therapy uh and other sorts of emotional uh therapies within the center and from then on it evolved from one stage of support to the other to the extent then we found ourselves uh paid communities uh becoming like a bridge between uh the local authorities the national authorities and the Emergency Services on one side and then uh the community on the other side so we were almost it only safe and trusted uh platform where the two sides can come uh with all the anger and emotional um upset and everything can still engage and talk to one another uh in a safe platform and that's what we have ended up being uh and we continued um central government ministers local uh government issues even to the institutions like the London Fire have been coming to the faith community centers like Al St Clement the Methodist Church and others to really engage the community and listen to the community it's a story of collaboration I I wonder if there are you know big lessons from this for for others and I won't bring in some other people on the call just to address that Eddie Eddie tulich from the national Church's trust uh you've written reports about how uh buildings of Faith organizations can be this bridge as AB Raman was describing there and uh cond for support um what uh what were the lessons that you uh can glean from what's just been said by Abdul Raman from what the work of the center and how people came together aut ically to to help and support it's noticeable in the report how uh the local Faith buildings are mentioned um St Clement's church the almania Muslim cultural heritage center the latima Community Church Francis CC Catholic church and the Notting Hill Methodist Church um uh what faith buildings bring are are a building and that's very important and volunteers both are brought uh and uh that's something that father Alan reflected upon um so um all around the UK there are Church buildings and other buildings of other Faith there are 38 and a half thousand Church buildings and at times of Crisis and of need those buildings are available uh one thinks of floods civil disasters um uh uh and they also are able to adapt very quickly to respond to need clearly uh the gral disaster they had to respond immediately but other things like warm spaces have been set up in in in in in in in in churches they're not sort of bureaucratic organizations where they have to spend six months getting approval they can just get on and do it um so that's the first thing and I think that's perhaps not widely recognized what actually happens in these buildings of course prayers are important but so much else happens in these buildings and you're right to mention our report the house of good we estimated that the well-being value of that of of these Church buildings is around 55 billion pounds a year the other thing I take away from the report are the statements saying basically that the council had no regard for the culture and religious needs of the people and uh the council had little understanding of the local voluntary groups uh and that's something that can be addressed um if a csil is willing to sort of open up and to say we're not the experts at everything we don't have all the people who can do this and engage with faith communities um uh some councilors are better at that than others but there's an opportunity here um I will Point people in the direction of the faith Covenant um that's something that's been set up by Steven Tim's APG in Parliament and Le's council is an example of one that's just adopted that and that allows um councils to have a sort of Covenant with faith groups and to uh to reach out and to to work more closely together and I think there's a broader uh you know thing here obviously the the gral report and the gral disaster makes this crucially clear at a moment of such emergency but the new government really should be a bit more active in getting local authorities and public groups to engage with faith groups and make more use of the buildings when they're needed and also of the volunteers and you know to to be honest the the faith of people and the hope and and and uh the the prayers that they bring there was a a statement from Kensington and Chelsea Council uh after the report was published apologizing unreservedly for everything that that had happened before and saying that uh just is still to be served and uh grul can never be allowed to happen again so it's a statement of intent for the future and acknowledgement there thank thanks Eddie um can I bring in adul Sami aland I hope I've pronounced that properly from the Muslim Charities Forum because you you represent there are hundreds thousands probably of Muslim Charities all around the UK um what what's your knowledge of um what happened at Grell we we've heard that thousands of people arrived at the church and arrived at the mosque and people were arriving from all over the UK and sometimes abroad to to help what's your understanding of how a disaster like that brought the charity sector together um again uh Eddie's point was very interesting that there's no bureaucracy involved you don't plan for it for six months it just happens um like journalism what a big story I suppose when it happens everyone reports it but yes just give you a reflection if you would on what happened there yeah absolutely and and these you know issues these these type of problems often um put pressure on on on faith-based organizations and Community sector organizations who are often usually there just present that's a real answer in fact they just they they are from from the same places know many people responded you know have families have friends who who lived in at grille for example and they were the ones who were you know attending the local mosque for example as well many of them who prayed the night prayers um the night before who were able to actually help with some of the evacuations that were going on for example and that's the first real answer the fact that they actually present they're there and they're able to respond as as quickly as possible and this is the kind of resilience that we've kind of seen building within kind of local community organizations and I think just one thing about uh to touch up on on on what Ed mentioned with regards to how local authorities and really Bridging the Gap between local authorities and Community sector organizations um uh it's you know some of the research that we've done and some of the work that we're trying to really do is is how can we actually help local authorities understand um the organizations that are working within them and and how they can actually better allocate resources and and just genuinely speaking have a better relationship to be able to kind of uh put together some these because it's it's there is a massive Gap in across various um local authorities on that and I think that's another area of improvement that really needs to happen uh and I think one one thing I'll just kind of touch up on which is that I know we've mentioned a lot of things about being being damning and um but I think it's also it's really a a shame in terms of and we should be looking at this um that you know it's bringing not just you know our government but us as a country to distribute and really should be reflecting upon how many more FES I know we've said that you know I you just mentioned the the statement Kon in Chelsea about um saying never again but the reality is that there have been plenty full of fires unfortunately that have happened some of them have been mentioned in the report and not just that we're still seeing things going on we've only just seen a couple of you know a week back go through what's happened in dag so the reality is when we say never again we should uh put our money where our mouths and actually heed those warnings and the recommendations yes they'll take time to approve but I think when it comes to um for example the next steps um in terms of Justice For example Justice isn't for the sake of kind of resentment but rather as a part of the process of healing process as part of trying to increase the culture of accountability and culture of um of of of doing what's right as one thing but I think beyond anything else it's about how do we genuinely and sincerely make sure that we say that never again and we're going to implement the recommendations that have been put forward and ensure that we fed so I think you know that's those are some kind of initial thoughts thank you um you I go back to you Anan something that you wrote in your book and you said on reflection as you looked at your role in all of this um that you spoke of offering a stress tested rationale for Parish Ministry uh just to explain to us what that means and um how you arrived at that conclusion if the churches and alar and if these Faith communities weren't there what what would what would the process have been um the Church of England itself had has um has it's going through a period of reevaluation of its own purpose and meaning um within this country and um resources have been plowed into um fairly large high-profile um mission project and uh some of us who've you know dedicated Our Lives to Parish Ministry um at times have felt that uh what we're offering is is is being in some way sidelined or undervalued um and of course it's very easy to undervalue because it goes on below the surface all this day-to-day contact with people the support or the relational side of Parish Ministry um which which which happens all the time and um it is very easy to underestimate it and its value and its contribution and um so but when a crisis like this occurs all that has been invested in the local communities comes together you know we're trusted agencies in these very stressful situations people turn to Faith communities as to obviously to other local charities as well they turn to us because we have that relationship because we're living among people alongside people people we've been there supporting them through um all the every aspect of their lives um and um obviously one doesn't do this in order to be there and to to to get the cudos of your response in the crisis you just do it because that's what you are called to do as a faith community you are called to be there in the community alongside people building those relationships if that hadn't happened then we wouldn't be there we wouldn't be able to give a response um and I think that's what I me that's what I meant by the it being a stress tested rationale because the Church of England is going through this period of re-evaluation of what its priorities should be where it should put its money and things like that um but I think GRL really demonstrated the immense value of parishes and I think really um it's very important that church leaders um and leaders of other Faith groups it's very important that they're seen in the Public Square it's very important that they have some sort of platform to speak to big issues of justice and equality in our society it's enormously important that people do that but their mandate for doing that is what happens at Grand level in parishes because they speak from those small local communities and the cumulative effect of all of that I just wanted to Echo some of the things that father Alan has been saying um is is a question of resources I mean it's not just the Church of England that is considering its future Mission but other uh other uh Christian nominations particularly as regard to what what's the purpose of Parish what's do do they need Church buildings anymore and you know uh and it's clear that buildings are needed um and church denominations should put their money into those buildings and so should government to be honest um because uh you know without these buildings the government would have to spend 10 times as much money to you know to run things because uh all this stuff is often provided free uh or at a a at a at a low cost in a church building so keeping these buildings open and in use uh needs money and that money should come I think from denominations Charities such as ourselves and the government Bishop I wonder how you reflect on that um is the report a wakeup call to the church to put its money into parishes and away from these large scale Mission programs I think uh Allan makes a very strong point about the the value of the parish system and some it's kind of thing that you know if you didn't have it you you certainly want to invent it um and uh struck me later on that same summer you may remember a couple of months after grandall there was the Parsons Green um bombing attack and I remember being there and meeting many of the same emergency services and because it was in my my Episcopal area um many the same sort of the police the ambulance people the kind of Emergency Services were there as were at Grenville and seeing the same faces and it struck me the time that you know again the local Parish church had opened its doors and be been a place where people could drop in and have a cup of coffee and just kind of gather themselves while this thing was happening it struck me how you know how you know every single square inch of this country is covered by a parish and other religious communities as well so you've got that as a local immediate response to to things like that same time with that I think you know one the things reflecting on our discussions one of the other things I think the religious communities did was to provide not just sort of practical space but Sacred Space uh and so the churches and the mosques and others were able to provide a place and host uh a place where the grief of people could be held and expressed and um if you like held within that kind of wider presence of God and for that you need Parish churches but you also need some of the larger places as well we held the six-month anniversary service or the six-month um service of remembrance National national service of Remembrance in St Paul's Cathedral um you kind of need some of those bigger spaces as well as the local Parish things as well so I think it is a kind of more it's a nuanced picture we desperately need that Paris system to to be strong to be resourced but we also need that kind of wider picture of of of of maybe larger churches larger spaces complimentary um to the kind of local um Bedrock of of the Church of England and Faith communities around the country to to make this thing work thank you just picking up what you were saying there about the listening ear provided as people came in uh while it was all happening and bringing into the conversation isima carum uh you were a psychotherapist at the al-mana center during the uh fire and you were offering support to families presum mainly Muslim families who came into the cultural center but just tell me a little bit about the work that you did there and how it was possible to offer support and comfort within what must have been a very bustling area with people very distressed at the time gretings of God's peace to you all um yes so it's a really everything that Bishop Graham um Alan and others have spoke Eddie are quite profound with ABD Rahman also of course there as somebody who I work with very closely and really proud of the work that we've did together on the ground responding to unprecedented crisis you have to also contextualize the comment that you made earlier with both two aspect want to pick on the best of humanity that rort identified in terms of how the faith group have came together I think that's something that we can be proud of and and actually to uh as I think Eddie or Alan was saying about faith groups are not addon they're in the heart of the community in fact they're crucial and Central uh part of the work and we need to reflect on the learning from and lessons from that and best of humanity con concept which is very Universal where all people responded uh with the tragedy and the visual image of the fire I attended as a volunteer I was also called as working across two miles down from Al Manara and another mosque in central London in Camden where I work and deliver my Community Practice um what I want to highlight is that the Islamic principle of um which uh Bishop highlighted that you know the best of humanity is the one who is good to one's neighbor the same principle we have this in Islam also which is I think what underpinning the philosophy that drove the Muslims in that particular month but I'm not just talking about Muslim I met and came across people of Christian Jewish Hindu and all other Faith or no faith who came on a primordial level which Islam also recognized another concept called fitra which is the inate inate goodness in humanity to respond to tragedy and we saw the best of humanity in in that in people of all faith and in my Psychotherapy Space by the way it was not just Muslims who came to see me for my one toone work I had non-muslim Christian Hindu Jewish client coming to see me in my coffee morning women who are not Muslim were there as well as in my onet toone individual which was really absolutely confounded me because I hadn't expected that I did ask them how come you're coming to what draws you and they've all said I have Muslim in the community I know them I see the respect from each other that you demonstrate and I feel you will listen because I come from a faith and I've not had people who could integrate faith into that so I've had people who are enough non-muslims I think that's something to highlight can I just talk to you about uh the work that you did at the time and perhaps people that you may still be in contact with and what difference will this report make on those feelings that you've just been describing that will Roar in the moment the abandonment uh the the the way that they felt ignored neglected that the council didn't take any account of Muslims at all how will this report have helped that was a really good question I think it's a complex response to that I think on the on on uh one level absolutely is what they've been waiting for I'm in touch with some of the volunteers some of the family members who who uh experienced the loss and grief um there is a however there is a however meaning will things transform into action behind those words what action could we see and it isn't just that that we're and the community seeking about the grandfa it's a wider human as a spiritual Muslim wider human um question that I think Abdul Sami talked about what the lesson we have learned and how is that translating universally to UK and wider so I think there is a profound question that we're all waiting for the new government to see how they and others take this forward it's definitely positive but I think given that the failure has been so systematic as the report said systematic dishonesty you could not get C profound in those words people will naturally be reserved and and cautious and will wait because they had compounded multiple failures chronic failures and ongoing systematic failures and so this is just a one Milestone on the journey a long journey thank you very much indeed um I think as we draw this session to a close um perhaps I could go to Abdu Ramen and then to you to you bishop and ask you um the same question really uh we've been talking about the action that the government government may take we've talked about the lessons that are there for leaders of the various Faith groups for you personally um how will this report change the way that you view the work of your Center your church in the community perhaps I go to you have do Raman first and then to you Bishop I think um the report is a very important U document to keep as a reference and also to highlight its findings as well as uh recommendations which are quite uh extensive um but the most important uh and we've been saying this for the last seven years is really to have a proper CR critical evaluation of all the institutions involved in the Grandville case but also Beyond if necessary the second thing is the mopping exercise and I know my colleagues from I think father Alan and others were mentioning um the role of the faith community uh is always undervalued and not recognized and I think it's about time that is changing too and the relationship uh not only within the community sector or the faith sector but also between the faith sector and the community and uh the institutions statut sector institutions that is has to be more of a strategic one rather than a transactional one which is always uh the case I I I was mentioning a few days ago about the counseling service that nasima was talking about that's the most underresourced but when people talk about recovery strategy you cannot have a proper recovery strategy without having the issues of therapy address it as well and if that's not taken Rec um like seriously and uh invested in uh we may not have U the recovery strategy implemented effectively uh so those are the kind of like relationship of uh strategy of partnership should be one of those uh areas that should come out from this report and everyone should recognize and work for yeah I I would agree with a lot of what abdan say he who speaks with a great deal of wisdom and um I think he what he said has been very helpful I think uh as he says I think one of the things that this report brings on to us again is is the significance of local Faith communities which I think is as we've said a number of times during our conversation has often been sidelined and not appreciated and it's good to see the report actually recognizing that and uh so hopefully that will bring a kind of renewed confidence to local community local Faith communities that that we do have a a significant role to play in our in our communi not just at times of Crisis like this but as Alan's been pointing out as well in the kind of ordinary um so course of Life the significance of both buildings both communities and worship I think so I think the second thing is is that what we can do is to point up the kind of spiritual dimensions of some of these issues um you know we're not politicians that's not our job the job of the politicians is to kind of exercise and to put in place all the political elements We Are Spiritual communities that that that draw a bigger frame of of reference to this and therefore it seems to be that the um one of the things we can do as the as the Christian church but also other Faith communities as well is to draw attention to the the spiritual dimensions of the kind of Crisis we face as as as a nation both culturally um and socially as well as practically as well that this is actually about about how we care for one another and how we love our neighbor and that is a spiritual issue as much as it is a political one and so helping to interpret these things in the light of that kind of wider theological and spiritual issues I think that's something that we particularly have to do thank you and thank you all very much for joining the briefing today hope to see you again at the next one thank you