Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson talks Supreme Court ethics, family in 'Lovely One'

[Music] hey it's imp's book of the day I'm Andrew limbong Supreme Court Justice kasanji Brown Jackson has a new Memoir out it's titled lovely one and it chases her life from growing up in the segregated South to being a Supreme Court Justice and it's an interesting time to be a Supreme Court Justice promoting a new book because people are not so hot on the Supreme Court these days especially after the reporting surrounding Justice Clarence Thomas and the undisclosed gifts received from billionaire Holland Crow a Pew study from earlier this summer showed that favorable views of the Court remain pretty close to Historic lows Justice Jackson spoke with NPR's Wana Summers about the book and we'll hear about the more personal aspects she reveals in her Memoir in a bit but first here they are talking about the politics of the judicial branch after the break this message comes from NPR sponsor Stars presenting the new series three women based on the best selling book by Lisa too three women follows a writer played by shayene Woodley who persuades three spectacular ordinary women to tell her their stories and her relationships with them changed the course of her life forever starring shayen Woodley Betty Gilpin danda Weise and Gabrielle creevy watch the season premiere of three women September 13th only on stars and the Stars app Supreme Court Justice katoni Brown Jackson has this recollection of her entry into the national Spotlight just about about two years ago I had been through what I thought was a pretty treacherous time for those who remember the confirmation hearings Senators on the Judiciary Committee made remarks and suggestions about her Judicial philosophy experience and identity that at times got pretty hostile is when it is about philosophy when is somebody of color on our side it's about we're all racist if we ask hard questions is not going to fly with us your public comments about and I'm going to quote you the transformative power of progressive education end quote these are deeply concerning why would you want to sentence that person to more time rather than less why isn't that rational Senator I've answered this question and I'll stand on what I already answered that hearing was the start of a journey not just towards her eventual confirmation as the first black woman to ever sit on the United States Supreme Court but towards writing her first Memoir lovely one which is out today I was just so grateful to get through that process and to have this opportunity to serve the American people I spoke to Justice Jackson about how she thinks the court should continue to serve the people at a time when trust has waned and how she kept her composure during her confirmation hearing as I say in the book some very wise person in my White House prep team said you can get angry or you can be a Supreme Court Justice um and so I thought about that in my head when I was responding to uh the Senators I also had the Good Fortune I think of getting to meet with senators and I think in my head I was calling back to our one-on-one meetings as I listened to them ask me questions in that forum and it helped I have to imagine though it's challenging to sit there these are people who are probing questions about your record making assertions about your very character and you're sitting there and being asked to respond to that what what's going through your head as you do that I think what's going on in my head is I'm thinking they are speaking to the American people and now I'm needing to speak to the American people and whatever assertions or assumptions or character uh attacks they are making I want people to see who I really am and I didn't want to take the bait as they say past Supreme Court justices have suggested that it can take years before you get to feel really comfortable on the court you you come in with such experience to the job but what surprised you um you know I think being on a panel of nine judges is a little challenging you know when I was Mo most of my judicial experience came from the district court where I was by myself one judge in the courtroom your own courtroom you control everything and so Collective decision- making I think is a little challenging and so having to kind of navigate that is surprising but again I had clerked on the court so I wasn't unfamiliar with how it operates there is of course a presidential election coming up and every indication at this point is that it will be close if the results are so close and are contested up into the Supreme Court as in Bush Vore given How Deeply divided this country is and can be do you think it's possible that the court can craft opinions that not only seem credible to the public but also maintain the Court's Integrity oh not only do I think it's possible I I think that's our responsibility that's our duty that's what the Court's role is in our system of government and yes absolutely you made the point that it is the Court's duty to deliver opinions credibly and with integrity and you you have clear confidence that it can and that it will but obviously the response to certain big decisions including one that happened right before your first term the do's decision has brought a lot of increased scrutiny to The credibility of the Court among other issues so I'm wondering if you have any words on how to reassure the public in this moment in our politics and in our nation about the court about the institution about The credibility about the Integrity the court doesn't have any mechanism of enforcement of its opinions it's because people believe in the court and believe in the rule of law that people follow uh what the Court decides I guess I would just say more broadly that uh what we're seeing now in terms of the criticisms and critiques are part of the democratic process you know the court in my view is not above criticism or constraint and in Democratic constitutional republic which is what we have the people decide what the function and structure of government should be and so I see a lot of the debate going on right now as part of the process of the public engaging on uh the structure and the function of the court and so that's the way our system works that said what do you make of calls for ethics reform for the court well the court has recently adopted ethics rules that are similar to the rules that lower courts have had for some time if not since their founding um as I mentioned I was a lower court judge and I operated under ethics rules I'm personally glad that the court has now adopted a code of ethics none of the reform rules that have been introduced as I understand are mandatory so is that enough these guidelines are in place and they're important by your admission but do you think there should be something more well you know the guidelines have been adopted the justices have committed to following them I think the question is whether there's something about the Supreme Court that would make it different than the binding ethics rules that exist in the lower courts and at least up to this point I haven't seen any good reason why there shouldn't be binding rules but so far we're not there hey it's Andrew here I just want to step in and say that this Memoir isn't just about the ethics of the Supreme Court lovely one is a generational Story one where Justice Jackson looks back at the people who raised her including her grandmother uzer Ross I talk in the book about how I recall going to church with her and uh with my mom and with my aunts and it was really spiritually grounding for me as a young African-American girl going to school in predominantly white spaces um we went to a black church in Miami and it was wonderful and so seeing the other black people there I think really was very affirming for me there's the story that you tell in your book about your grandmother uzer and it has to do with this note that she'd written though you didn't know it at the time and I I would love to just hear you tell that story for us well um this is a story that is burned into my memory um I was probably 8 years old or so and this one particular Sunday in my grandmother's kitchen you know I went in to uh wash my hands and I see in the sink a note written on a napkin in misspelled English it says something to the effect of broke sink weight for repair but it's misspelled and I'm 8 years old and I thought it was really funny who doesn't know how to spell you know weight or repair and so I bring my mother in and I'm laughing and I'm going mom look at this note that I found and she was iate she was iate because she saw me as making fun of someone and she said you know even though you have all the opportunities and you um you know have learned how to spell you're not one bit better than anybody else and I thought I raised you better than this um and I was devastated I bet because all I ever wanted was to please my parents and I had not realized that my grandmother did not have much formal education to that point and that she had written the note I cried all afternoon um left the house ran outside and wouldn't come back in and then eventually came back in and apologized and it made me um feel like you know so much of what I have and what I've have been given is by the grace of God in a lot of ways and that doesn't make me any better than anyone else and that everyone should be kind and have that kind of empathy for others you also write about your journey into Parenthood and the struggles of Parenthood and one thing that you talk about in some detail in the book is your eldest daughter's autism diagnosis and I'd love to know more about that but first I just want to ask you is this something your family has disclosed publicly before um it has not been something that we disclose publicly before and this is so much a part of who we are as a family and who I have become uh as a human being and this was something that we focused on when I decided to accept the president's nomination because I felt that if I were to go forward and be the nominee for uh the Supreme Court this might be something that reporters would find out it would be something that was reported and if my daughter was uncomfortable with it I might have chosen not to pursue this position but she encouraged me and that gave me the courage I think to to close it not only part of the the um confirmation process internally but publicly now as a part of the book um it was challenging though throughout her her upbringing and I just wanted to be honest in part because I wanted people to understand that as a working parent you can manage um even when you have uh challenging circumstances in terms of your family and my daughter said I'm not ashamed of it I'm happy to have you tell the truth about our family this next question is one that I I have a feeling there are some people who will say I should not ask it of you but it is something that you wrote about in your book so I'm going to go there and it is about your hair um it is something that I immediately noticed about you perhaps because I spent so many years agonizing over whether to lock my own hair wrestling with questions of will I be seen as professional when I show up to interview someone or show up on their television will they see me as credible or will they respect me so I want to ask you about that Journey because especially as I flipped through the photos in your book it wasn't always sister locks there was a journey that came into that and I'm sure a lot of thought oh absolutely and the questions that you said that you wrestled with were 100% um resonant with me in terms of how I also thought uh especially being a lawyer being at you know big law firms at times uh wanting to be taken serious iously and seen as a professional um but I have to tell you I got to a point where I couldn't do it any other way because there wasn't enough time to do what I traditionally did with straightening my hair and curling my hair and doing all the self- Care that is necessary to maintain it is work it is work and when I saw a woman who had I didn't even know the name um sister locks and I've had my hair locked now for I think 15 years um but back then you know it wasn't all that popular but I saw this woman and I was like I want that and I asked her I chased her down and I said you know um what who does your hair what is it and she gave me the name of her loctician and I have used only this one woman for 15 years that's incredible I want to bring it back now if I can to someone we talked about early in our conversation and that is your beloved grandmother who you wrote She prayed so hard for you she wanted so much for you but she didn't live to you graduate from Harvard to get married to raise two beautiful girls to be the first black woman on the Supreme Court how do you think she would feel about where you are today oh I think she would be so incredibly proud of me knowing how much she prayed for me knowing that she used to say all the time you know you are a blessed child and I felt that way um and and it was so much uh I give so much tribute to her not only in the book but in my life and I think she would have been enormously proud of me Justice katoni Brown Jackson her new Memoir is a lovely one thank you so much thank you so much W it was a pleasure to be here and you can find more of my discussion with Justice Jackson about her life and the Court's future at npr.org [Music] this message comes from NPR sponsor Merill whatever your financial goals are you want a straightforward path there but the real world doesn't usually work that way Merill understands that that's why with a dedicated Merill adviser you get a personalized plan and a clear path forward go to ml.com bullish to learn more Merill a Bank of America company what would you like the power to do investing involves risk Merl Lynch Pierce Fenner and Smith Incorporated registered broker dealer registered 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