BBC Presenter's Honest Opinion Of Latter-day Saints & Temples - Joe Wilson

Joe Wilson BBC Presenter my special guest today is uh Joe Wilson from BBC Radio Lancashire and uh it's an honor to have you on Joe I appreciate you carving out some time for me today that's okay that's no problem at all what do you need to know you gonna give me a grilling not at all I I I couldn't possibly give you a grilling um I just uh I've been looking forward to hearing your insights and more about your career and and it's bit intimidating being on the other end of interviewing you rather than you being the interviewer but uh I wonder first if I could find out a bit about like uh so I'll have covered your intro already but um what what is your what was your upbringing like in terms of Faith did you have a faith filled upbringing terms of Faith um I I I grew Joe's Upbringing in the Catholic Faith up in uh the uh sainted capital of Bolton um and uh lived there for a very sful part of my early life um and part of Bolton is a town called farmworth which is where I actually lived and there I went to a Roman Catholic School on to a Roman Catholic church and I went there uh P the uh primary school and then on well infants and then primary school and then on to secondary school and left there when I was about 16 15 or 16 and uh throughout that time I was brought up in the Catholic church in the Roman Catholic Church were you quite a a strict adherent of Catholicism my family were um my my mom was a devout Catholic um very very devout my dad C I suppose so I think he my dad used to take the line of anything for a quiet life really so I think I think he was quite uh quite uh you know we went every week we went to church every Sunday um the church was only at the top of the street I served for time as an altar boy um and then after that uh you sort of Jack that in when you're around about 11 12 years of age we we went off and do that and I kind of left the church I suppose you could argue when I was about 15 something like that right you you're obviously a big um personality in the local communities with regards to Faith but have you would you say you um have had many sort of uh spiritual experiences that brought you to God throughout your life no I wouldn't have said that um I I I think it's fair to say that I left Catholicism when I was about as I say 14 15 maybe 16 at most and never went back and that's not to say that um I don't go and visit churches because I do that all the time as part of my job and it doesn't say it doesn't interest me um but what I would say is that I'd like to tell you I'd like to tell you that I actually left the church over some doctrinal reason or you know I looked at something and I thought well that's not right I'm not having any of that um that isn't the case at all I left a church simply because I got bored and I think a lot of young people do and I think a lot of youngsters uh leave churches because they find it repetitive and they don't necessarily buy into the doctrines of the church and I think this and i' I've realize this in later life that there's a great deal of difference between what you might call doctrinal church and what church she do and I think I think there's a very big difference there and I think that is something I've come to realize over the last 20 years 25 years or so um but at the time when I left the church no I left the church because I was bored I left the church because it was an hour I had to waste every Sunday I saw it as a 14 15 year old something like that I didn't particularly want to do it and um I kind of rebelled I got a great education out of the Roman Catholic church and another Catholic Church would say that I am forever a Catholic and you know once a baptized Catholic you're always a Catholic um that's in their domain it's not necessarily as I see it but um it is how they see it and and I I accept that that's the way that they will see it but I don't necessarily think that that's the practicality of the matter could you dig into what you said earlier about the difference between what you thought churches did Doctrine and Living Faithfully and the doctrinal different because that sounded interesting but I'd like to know yeah I I think I think churches for me and um it's not churches really it's Faith groups generally it's not just about Christianity it's about any sort of Faith group to to be a member of that group you have to believe the doctrines of that group whatever that group believes so if it is um Hindu Faith or a sik tradition or Muslim tradition whatever that faith is if you kind of sign up to it if you say yes that's what I believe then then that's fine what I find difficult to accept at times and I think I did when I was 18 is that at 18 I can vote for who I like and I can go into a pub and I can uh drive a car and I can do any one of a number of things but apparently according to my upbringing of church I can't step back and decide what faith suits me I I was baptized a Catholic and they tell me I'm going to be a Catholic for the rest of my life and um I I that is something that I think I wrestled with but to actually talk about the doctrinal thing I I think that is a belief in history and that is a belief in Tradition and it's a belief in what people believe in it's what they do it's they believe this this is the way we came to be on this planet this is why how we should live our lives and so on and so forth and I think that can be divorced from the actual practicalities of what people do in church and what people do as a church um and I always hear lots of people talking about I'm not a Christian I'm a Muslim or I don't go to church or I don't do this I don't do that I think we all kind live our life by the same Creed really we all want to be nice to each other we all want to look after each other or at least we should do we all want to be good citizens and we all want to be good people and we all want to try and make the best of what we've got and whatever those talents are and if we find people around us struggling we should be giving them a lift up and we should be helping them and and I think pretty much every Faith subscribes to that so there a lot of common ground and I would subscribe to that what I do find difficult to accept is um the uh belief in certain um Faith tenants so people say well you know if you if you're in this church you've got to believe that that Jesus Christ did this and he did that and did the other and all so on and so forth um I think that the two are quite separate I think I think how we live our lives and how we should live our lives and the social justice work that Faith groups my my experiences of Lancer but I'm sure it's the same anywhere else what people do for society is brilliant it's absolutely astounding and goodness knows where this country would be or any country would be without that input and without that help and without the the food banks that folk run and they and the social uh work that people do and they're helping the homeless and the all these things are brilliant they're really fantastic pieces of work you know they're great it doesn't matter who's doing them it doesn't matter what tradition's doing them um and to many people I think 90% of faith is that the 10% where you actually sit there and think to yourself well how did God God arrive on this planet did God ever arrive on this planet did Jesus Christ ever really exist in the way that we believe him to have existed or many people believe him to existed or was he just a very uh charismatic and well-meaning person people have got all sorts of different views about that and I think if you if you're part of a faith and sign up to it then good luck to you I don't have a problem with that that's great um but I think I do Subs I don't subscribe to any of that but I do subscribe 300% to the brilliant work and the well-meaning work and the well-meaning people who exist in Lancashire and who do their work in Lancashire um I do subscribe 100% to them because I think that what they do they just have my total and utter admiration if I can't go the last um 10% and agree particularly with um their faith or their tradition um then you know fine but I don't think that should get in the way of anything really so for those that's a really interesting take Interfaith Relations um and for those people who have stayed within their traditional religious community and and feel that that is out of you know intentionality rather than sort of all right I'm lumped in this this is my identity with it being a choice um what's your message to them about how they can cultivate more tolerance and inclusivity as well as um working with other Interfaith groups that I know you covered a lot of stuff like that on your show well the first thing I'd say is the first thing I'd say is it is not wrong to take a different view to what I've just suggested so other words I I uh would walk away um from uh the church as I did do when I was 14 and 15 as I say largely because I was bored but when I look back at it now and I look back I went to a baptism some years some years after I'd left the church and I went to a baptism and I read the Bible and I read the prayer book for the very first time in a way because when I went to school it was basically drummed into me it was you know learn the catechism learn this sentence learn the Ten Commandments we'll be testing you later all this sort of thing and he sort of drummed into you and and that's fine but but when you become a freethinking person in your your teens and you start to actually read what is placed in front of you you start to realize at times that you don't quite necessarily agree with this and it my thinking that if you do agree with it brilliant that is great this I've got friends who I went to school with I still see I still go to the football with them they still go to church they still they still enjoy the Roman Catholic faith and they believe it intensely they live their life by it and good luck to them I don't um and I but I do subscribe to very much of what that tradition says and what your tradition says and what everybody's tradition says which is um to ensure that we live our life the best we can as decent people and help each other and do all that we can it's not wrong for instance for us to look at other people who are not of faith and say well you know you're kind of slightly inferior to us no they're not they're just as good and sometimes many times better than we are and and and I'm not of Faith as such and so I look at lots of people and and I think what we have to do and I think what has happened increasingly and I think it's happened with your tradition um is that maybe 25 30 years ago people would look at the Church of Jesus Christ and Latter-Day Saints and they would just look at it and say oh I'm a bit worried about that bit bothered about all that um I remember covering the opening of the temple and when it opened and people were up in arms in chy and all sorts of places that this Temple that had was arriving in Charley and what have you 25 years 30 years later it doesn't seem that way at all now people look at it it's there they have a welcome I believe for people who are around there's no animosity there's no worry there's no fear and and I think most people take that view or should at least take that view that you know people believe whatever they believe let them get on with it as long as it's not illegal it's not harming anybody carry on what does it matter if you um want to coexist with other people you have to accept that people are going to think differently than you and I tell you one thing that's interesting as a broadcaster and take it away from religion um take it to politics I've covered many a general election and people reckon they know which way you vote when you're on the radio they reckon they know where you vote and I'll be honest I'll tell you now who I vote for um I've voted from all over the years um and uh I I think the the TR truth is that you look at each election and you sort of think to yourself well actually at this set of circumstances at this time in our history these are probably the best people to vote for and that's that's how I tend to view politics and I'm a massive political animal I love politics but let me tell you what happens in a studio in the radio Studio at um at uh election time or any other time same thing happens with faith people come into your studio and is the labor candidate and they come into your studio and they tell you what they'd like to do at the next election what they would do if they got voted and you do an interview with them and you challenge them and when they walk out you very often think to yourself well they had a point and then the tour man comes in and he uh sits there and he tells you what he wants to do and you think well he's very nice as well he he has a point and then the liberal Democrat will come in and then whoever comes in and they all come in one after the other they all want to do well and they all to a certain extent have a point and what you have to do I believe anyway what I have to do as a broadcaster and also what people have to do with faith is to listen to what those people have to say and then decide yeah a they've got a point B that they're well-meaning they're not wishing to do anybody any home they're well-meaning and then when we get beyond all of that if it becomes a vot then you might want to subscribe to one side or the other but but the bottom line is they're all trying to do their best and every everybody's trying to do what they can and I I think it would be wrong of me to say that I sit in front of a microphone with any um particular act to ground we are incredibly um assiduous about being as as down the middle as we possibly can and and and and try to be as impartial as we can it's the same with faith I I don't for instance see that your tradition is any better than anybody else's tradition or that the Church of England trumped the Catholics or anything like that that and I'd like to think that over the last 30 40 years we've got away from all that and that people do just see people who do something else be it's on a Friday or Saturday or a Sunday whenever they go whenever they go to wherever they worship or whatever they do just accept that somebody down the street thinks a bit differently than you do and believes in what they believe in and the bottom line is they'll probably help you if you find that you're in trouble and that's all that matters really yeah and I think it's I agree with you that it's taken work and effort but I think Interfaith relationships have significantly improved and you know it's going to take more work and effort but it it's certainly a good path and and you talked there about broadcasting and your that Segways onto a few questions I've wanted to ask you about that which is you know you're you're a a Lancashire Bolton lad Why Broadcasting? you come from uh a farming history you're into your football what led you into broadcasting what wanted what made you want to do that do that yeah I don't know where you got the farming from but um I wouldn't describe yourself as with a far I come from a an industrial background really in the sense that I thought Lancer was a very uh farming his farming yeah lancas is 80% rural but um I'm not a farmer and I've never really aspired to be one actually I've got the absolute admiration for Farmers they get up at like 3:00 in the morning every day I only do it once or twice a week but they do it every day and um they're out there on Plows in the middle of winter and what have you all know the farming community and I love walking I do a tremendous amount of walking and I do enjoy walking through farms and across Mand and they look after all that and they're really good um no I I I grew up in in in uh in farmouth basically the bolon area in farmouth was started in Harwood and then moved on to there and for a very large part of my life that's where I've been um I don't know there now but it is where I've been and I think that's where I misunderstood Joe is I I've been studying about your your past as I've been researching and I must have misread it as you grew up on farms or in farms not in Farmer yeah yeah I I do I do I do sort of live around a farming Community I suppose in some respects but like you said Lancashire is very heavily rural um so know I came um to broadcasting really um where I came from farm and Bolton it wasn't really a pathway that was well trodden working for the BBC where I came from um and I really I suppose got an I've always had an interest in in I didn't realize it at the time but I've always had an interest in in journalism and how things got to be on the radio and how stuff happened and and people's political views and um current affairs and all that sort of thing always been interested in that um but I suppose really I made my way going forward as a DJing clubs and then um joined the BBC when local radio became uh established and I joined radio Manchester back in uh probably about 19 uh 76 77 somewhere around there moved to radio Lancashire and I've been at Radio Lancashire ever since but not really really as a person who just jcks if you like I can do that and I do a lot of that sometimes especially over Christmas and times like that but also somebody who's um uh fronts a lot of country Affairs programs and political programs and discussions and all that sort of stuff and at the moment my role and it has been really for many years is to um to to do the faith program on a Sunday and I usually have other programs that go with it but also at the same time I do a lot of filing for for when they're on holiday so I I do a lot of midm morning programs and and afternoon programs and things like that and the the beauty of doing stuff like that is that um you get to meet everybody all sorts of people and a lot of people think you you know if you meet some famous person and they say that must be fantastic do you know the most interesting people to meet are not the famous people the most interesting people to meet are people you've never heard of and that you will never have heard of but they've done stuff and um they live their life and they they have done things in their life which we can only stand back and admire and and they're never ever going to be on a celebrity and they're never ever going to be fed at the London Palladium but they're far more entertaining and engaging than many of the celebrities I've met who who have all names and and that's that's a a fact of life to me I've met some remarkable people in like should have done some remarkable things and yet ultimately we we probably don't know most of them you know and how did your your journey into broadcasting you said you wanted to do Faith Broadcasting this faith and ethics show the Sunday Morning Show but from your from your background it sounds like there was a bit of boredom around that I'm interested in why you wanted to do that yeah how did I get into Faith broadcasting um I got asked to do it that's simple as that really when you work for lcal radio you can be asked to do anything um I could be asked to do the mid morning program the afternoon program breakfast programs I've sport programs over the years uh I can be asked to uh go and do a faith program I can do uh programs in front of audiences all that sort of thing it's what the radio station demands of you really and and I suppose in many respects I would say that um radio has changed a lot over the years it has changed a great deal and you have to change with it for instance um today I've been setting up our faith program for Sunday morning but at the same time I've also been um putting stuff on the BBC website on BBC SS um and putting four or five pieces up there today which you which are nothing to do with broadcasting as such as you would remember excuse me um but but they are about journalism because they're about sticking stuff on online so that people can read it and read stories about interesting people and I think I started off effectively wanting to be Tony Blackburn or um well probably n Edmunds at the time no Edmunds was the DJ I quite admired at the time I was like Blackburn Edmunds um and now you just have to do anything and it's the same with local radio local radio it's a really big umbrella if you work for radio one or Radio 2 you're ostensibly kicking out Tunes aren't you you know you'll a few other things but largely that's what you're doing and but local radio is expected to encapsulate all of that and then do a load of Journalism on top and that's why I like it that's why I've never moved from it it's because of the diversity and as we're going into faith I was asked to do it and you just make the best of what you can do and people seem to have liked what we've done over the years and so um I kind been given it and that's that's that's how it's happened really MH and you've you've been running it excellently I should say for a long long time now aren't you the longest uh running continuous broadcaster on BBC Radio is is that correct no I don't think so or longest running faith faith broadcaster probably that's right that that might well be right there's not a lot in it um uh but recently one or two have left and that could well be the case now um I'm not the longest um serving BR I don't I don't I don't think so anyway it's I've never thought of it that way but I don't I don't think that's true um for instance um there's um no I'm definitely not I tell you now because I'm just thinking of some names now in my head and I can think of at least two people people who've been in it longer than me and and there must be lots more but I can only just think of two up the top of my head but there there will be more terms of in terms of Faith uh specifically you have been that that stall warart along it and well what have been some of your favorite moments from running the Sunday Morning Show over the years um oh that was a good question Favourite Moments um there are things I recall um there are uh let me think there are I mean I remember covering the opening of your temple I remember that that was that was a happy time and a good time uh there has been uh I think the launch of Lan sings Christmas was another good thing that we did um there was also the queen on coming for M money at the Cathedral in Blackburn I've seen uh Bishops of Blackburn come and go so theyve that's always been uh fun um and there's been I think quite a few things but the landmark things I think is the arrival of your temple that's one um the goodat Hindu temple as well in um Preston that's an alert great place to to go and visit and they I I I seem to recall their pledging years and then coming you know becoming more and more in the society um uh Building Bridges in Burnley as well that was another thing because that came out of the they they decided not to call it a riot but um most people did but it it was they basically described as disturbances and um that and the work that goes on there and continues to go on there and also Pendle as well that is very good that that's that's uh something again that's a highlight but you know we took our highlights I I come back to to what I said earlier really which is about the people you meet and you you drive away from place I mean I'll tell you there's a lady long since gone unfortunately called Dorothy McGregor Dorothy was in Arrington she's she described herself as a Hermit and we she used to get up at well she lived in a caravan as I recall and um she was uh uh what she get up around about quarter to three in the morning something like that she spent the first hour or so of the day praying and she set up a a sort of community in Arrington B de relief and she set up a community in Arrington which was there to assist anybody who was struggling with the world and anybody who was at home or whatever and and Dorothy garnered around her some great people including Julie hesman house from uh Coronation Street and lots of other tele programs F and um she they all work to help people in the hurn area and try and assist them in whatever problems that they got and people like her are basically living Saints really and we talked about what they believe and all this sort of thing in many respects you judge somebody like that just by what they've done you know it it's the fact that they go to church is almost irrelevant to a certain extent because look at what they've done to the world and it could have been done quite easily by somebody who is not of Faith but just believes you should help people and um and you can sacrifice a lot of your life pretty much all of your life to to to helping folk in doing that and yes her faith drove her to doing it but at the same time I suspect she would still have done it if she didn't have a faith and and they're the kind of highlights that I recall and the people that you meet as you go along the way you've mentioned a couple times about Interest and Sceptism around the Preston Temple the uh the opening of the temple in Preston um obviously of unique interest to me and that was that was dedicated and completed the year I was born uh 1998 which is uh crazy I think and so I wonder could you share from a someone who CU many people who are listening to this in reality will um will be of my faith and uh it would be interesting to hear what the atmosphere was like what it was all like from a from your perspective as someone not well yeah um well this is from memory and so there may be one or two factual things that are wrong but I think what happened was we got uh sort of knowledge of you doing it of the of of your faith doing it um I I I don't know for certain but I should say several years before maybe even as as early as 1990 um I seem to recall there was an obsession um and I was part of the obsession of how much it cost right that was that was uh quite an obsession and as it was built further and further um we wanted access to it we wanted to see what they were doing we wanted to know what was going on uh from me um a third of your temples underground and um again that was something that we we came to all want to know about and I think to a certain extent many of the journalists myself included were quite ignorant about your beliefs uh when when it was first muted right we were we were quite ignorant of your beliefs we didn't know what they what your beliefs are and I think at the time the climate was such and many people s this that um that people who are members of the Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are not Christians and that was what was said quite quite extensively around that in the mid90s say um and I recall when it was that basically it was all dictated to by your media unit in in in Birmingham and they weren't for letting us come and have a look or anything like that we did ask repeatedly to come and see and actually they had a press day and this was about a month before they actually sealed the temple and we were invited to go on AB at R and we had a tour around but by this time uh we've gone on several years now we had um uh read up about you and learned about the faith and learned about the tradition and what it was all about and all this sort of thing so we we became probably the best informed journalists in the air anywhere around about about um what was going on um so there was all of that going on and at the same time too there was a more secular view of what was was going on because people were also saying um that the house prices in charlee and Whitley woods and around there they were going to shoot through the roof because people of your faith would want to gather with close proximity to the uh to the area to the Temple and so consequently the house prices were going to shoot up that was another thing that they thought another thing also that people were very concerned about was that you were going to be all over the area banging on doors and saying can we help and can we do this and would you come to join our faith and and can you do this and can you do that and can you do the other um and all that was going on so those were the those were basically the areas of of of of what was happening I don't know if you picked that up then I should um should I turn my volume down for you uh I don't want can you still hear me now am I still all right there I I can hear you perfectly I can't hear you then so anyway not to worry it happens again anyway so that's what it was like and there was there was a I think massive interest massive interest but at the same time there was also massive skepticism as well of what was happening here uh so come the day when we went round uh there was a a big press interest in it and we were taken on a trip round for probably two or three hours um some people asked some very interesting questions of it and I remember I remember that thinking to myself there some very perceptive questions that were asked and then after that and this had been going on in the background for about 12 months there was also the point of who was going to come and see it beside the journalist it's what would happen to the wider Community before it was sealed and there was something like a fortnite that was designated for people to go and have a look around and all in proper trips you know you can just March up and whatever you but I do remember that some of the churches in the area were very very reticent to allow their clergy to go and I do know that um some felt that they on no account should be seen being photographed by anybody if they're going to go around uh the temple and certainly not with any of your elders or anything like that because because they did not want to be seen of the same tradition um because of their belief that what you preach is not Christianity and that was also something there um that happened we also uh when we talked to other Fai they were a bit reticent about talking about what they felt about the temple they did come around quite quickly two or three weeks after it been sealed or something like that but they they did come by quite quickly and then of course it was sealed and and and in it being sealed that in itself created its own skepticism and it created its own myths and what was going on there and how people behaved in there and what people did in there um and that to a certain extent persist to this day but I don't think it's anything like as intense nothing like as intense as it was OD years ago but there is a certain mystery about it and there is a certain mystery about the area and I don't know what happened to the house prices no idea at all um I don't think they change radically if the truth be told um but apart from that uh whenever I've visited in the past I've always been very impressed with the building and and and the way it runs you know it's it's it's life and what have you um and I think over the years there has been and absolute um dilution of what people felt and I don't think now people care to Hoots about it now if they're not part of the temple it's just another building that's there in in in charlee and if if you are a faith you might um you know you might look at it with a degree more interest but that there's no people getting exercised at all about it and thinking to themselves you know this should not be allowed in our midst and there were people at the time who did believe it shouldn't be allowed in their midst right that's fascinating and looking on um 25 yeah it is 20 yes because I'm 25 Perceptions of Latter-day Saints in Preston looking on 25 years later we do have a big um population of of latterday saints in in Lancashire that I've just moved there myself actually not not because of the temple just because of found a good house um but um what would I I know Lindsey Hoy has um who's the MP for that local area the constituency of Charlie um has spoken at times about advice for that Latter-day Saint Community um the Force for good they can be in the area and there's been criticisms of time that were quite insular in the community you know or or perhaps you know your church yeah yeah that we we volunteer a lot but that volunteering is sort of focused on running our programs and such so I wonder what your message is to latterday Saints in the community um yeah my observation of that would be uh I'm not certain it's the case I think people are wary of it because of what is the mythology that grows there's television program that was on recently that you will have seen um uh there were certain things in there that people would look at and think to themselves is that really a way we should behave or or that that's um the the right thing to do um I as a journalist haven't got a view really I I I just think and I take this with any faith and with any sort of uh well anything really politics whatever if if people want to live their life like that and feel that that is the right way of doing things and that is you know that is what they should be doing don't let them get on with it you know we we're not here to dictate are we um we're here simply to say you know um let's carry on and uh um that's what I would say to you as suppos really um are you insul I think you're we it and but I think we have uh grown up in such a way that there are people we can go to now at the temple and talk to and they know we're not going to we're not going to try and turn them over and if they've got a view um about something as I say we're quite happy to accept it we will challenge it we will talk about things but at the same time uh in a respectful way and a way that that that says you're right as far as we're concerned you're neither right or wrong with just purely to inquire why you feel that way and and is it the correct way of doing things I I think the television program to a degree um made one or two people a little bit sort of wary wh which television program was this this is the one that was on BBC 2 about a year ago this is the one that followed many of the young missionaries oh yes yeah and um and showed life for the missionaries and they all things there that people would say well actually is that quite the right thing but at the same time there was nothing there that you know if people okay I keep coming back to this if people you want to live their life and believe this is the correct thing to do and believe that Jesus is telling them to do that that's the way that you know they should be um do we not just stand back and say carry on and what's more to the point applaud them for having you know the foresight to do what they wish to do and and that is that is the way I would view it and I think um that program to a degree um made people wonder but at the same time a lot of the skepticism and a weariness and the the the volunteering and I I I don't know what the situation is like now but I do know that many many years ago when when there were various organizations going up into Faith organizations they wouldn't entertain having the Church of Jesus Christ a l Saints in their group now you weren't alone in that there were others as well other um sort of like you know well established churches who they said oh well you don't believe what we believe and you would say well and I've stuck up on for this view on the radio before now um I see that you're as much as a Christian as a member of the Church of England because it's not for me to decide who is and isn't a Christian if you tell me you're a Christian you're a Christian you believe in Jesus Christ you're a Christian no problem right um it's not for me to decide that um it's for others to decide it might be for me to talk about various things that you might believe or you know discuss stuff but it's not for me to decide if you are or aren't a Christian um some have taken the view already and that sometimes is the difficulty you know you're standing on one side of the street waving saying hello I'd like to come and do this we'll be part of that sometimes people are going you know I'm not so certain you're already part of Our Gang uh that happened for many years I don't know whether it still exists to this day um but it did used to happen and it's said you know it's people were brought up you've got to remember that that people have had sort of centuries I suppose of been brought up in a tradition and then when somebody comes along and has a different take on it which you do uh you know then they might go well right you're not one of ours right you can believe it but you're not one of ours and and that I think is is what has happened and I think that possibly those barriers are coming down um but it's for others to decide who's right who's right and who's wrong but I think that's where the weariness comes along I not aware of what Lindsay's had to say really but at the same time I do feel that I've only ever met people who I think want to do right and who have a different Take On The World sometimes than than than other Christians and I again I come back to it whoever's right whoever's wrong um I'm not certain and I think I tell thing I think that doesn't help sometimes and that is that your history the way you express the history of your church and your sometimes doesn't fit with the history everybody's being taught or not everybody but a lot of people have been taught and that sometimes is a clash and people go they made that bit up and um I don't know who's made what you know I don't believe anybody's made anything that's what people believe um but you can equally look at the other side to say well actually I think they made that b truthful so I think it's I think there is a degree and also of course you're you're the fact that nobody's allowed in your temple will probably always be a bit of a barrier for you because people are naturally curious as to what is in there what goes on in there and they see the church some people do not everybody but they do see the church sometimes as being on several levels and everybody can go to the chapel and and and and what have you and they're very welcome to worship at the at the chapel and be part of the uh of the chapel uh that's there but at the same time go 100 yards up that car park and you're not allowed in and and that I think to some people only adds to the mystery of the church okay well there's some good points in there I think there's a lot of things that we can learn from your perspective and also you know I know the the church has been really without allowing people to have free roam to those um buildings that we consider really sacred they've been a lot more transparent on official Church resources and if you go to the church website you can uh they've been a lot more transparent about what does occur in the temples you know and quite comfortable in sharing that that it's not my perspective my perspective is only how I I I don't really have a perspective about your faith or your church or or whatever in terms of my own personal thinking I'm just saying that that's how believe people look at you and but what I would say is that um until those if you go to most other faiths I think and I got they can walk through the door and they can see for themselves what it is like in a mask or a temple um a guara anywhere they can they they can walk in you can walk in Blackburn Cathedral you can walk into a Roman Catholic Church you can go and have a look the doors are wide open please come in inside and have a look and those doors don't remain open and I think that's what causes the mystery for people and um I think also uh if you like myths grow up around it people sort of think oh you know what else is going on there and there's probably nothing to be overly bothered about or or overly you know sort of out wondering about but until people see for themselves and see what is going on then I think that sort of air of Mystique will remain and and people will be slightly wary and and um that's just the nature of human beings yeah there's nothing that and it's understandable as it's it's funny hearing it for although I definitely understand it it's funny hearing it from my view who I go quite often and so you know when I go it's just like a normal trip for me but um it's obviously yeah I understand that uh moving on what um are we in a period from your experience where faith is prospering or Is Faith Prospering or Declining? or faith is declining I think we need to um we need I think to go back to sort of half an hour or so ago and say that we need to look at this in two ways um the first thing is worship is worship prospering I believe it is not prospering in the way that it could do or that it does do it is in some Churches in some places and it's interesting that the um the formalized formalized sort of like established churches that people will have grown up over 30 40 years they're not perhaps as popular as they once were however there are other churches on the Block that tend to be more community and social based and I know for instance in Lancer the black B dasis are trying very much to to to become much more relevant to the communities around them um those people they uh are doing very well and you can go just uh I don't know half a mile from where you are a mile from where you are uh to the other side of charlee and there's a church there that's doing absolutely fantastic business you know really really really well um and so I would say that when it becomes social when it becomes communitybased when it becomes helping other people when it becomes providing resources for people it does very very well if you if you go from where you are now and literally go to the other side of Charlie and you will find um uh International uh International relief the um the uh organization that burnard Cocker has I don't think I've got the name right but anyway they they've got their headquarters on the car park at the side of AA and they are one fantastic organization based on faith doing brilliant work going all over the world to places you and I would run away from because there's bombs going up and all sorts of things and they go to there and they do it so faith is prospering there and Fa and faith is prospering in many many places like that and in many many places like that in Lancashire food Banks and all the social justice things that go on the help that people are being to their communities it is prospering all over the place but if you're talking about people turning up on a Sunday morning with their best at and go on and going into church I think you would have to say that numbers would suggest that maybe things aren't as they could be but in terms of people wishing to express their beliefs stroke faith in in a way that I think it's a never been more required because we've got a society at the moment that needs helping in in many ways and it's also never been any more um flourishing and and with great vision than it has been and you for instance go down to uh the Foxton Center places at Preston or you go to St Thomas's Church in Lancaster uh you go to the uh the Hindu temple at Preston uh you go to many mosques in East Lancashire some of the some of the Muslim uh uh mosques in East Lancashire they were one of the first people to be to be heading off to the Ukraine when they all kicked off to to help those that were struggling to to help people who are coming over the border to to be able to clothe them and bleed them and all this sort of stuff so clearly faith is absolutely flourishing in Lancashire in that sense but in the sense of turning up on a Sunday uh or whenever the service might be you have to look at a lot of the established churches not not the sort of like newer churches who come on block but the established churches and you have to look at them and think to yourself they're not doing as well as they could do and they're not doing as well as they used to be be another great church just again not far from where you are just up the A6 at the Crossgate Church in braston fantastic work they do they they and they do really good show business expression they do really good business right they do a lot of uh numbers on seats on a Sunday morning they do really well and whatever service that they do have been there and it's been packed and loads of people there they've got a cafe there they've got a Furniture Bank there where they help people and they've got um uh all sorts of schemes going on to to help folk in the community and they recently opened as I say a cafe there because they're next to the prison and they found that the the Prisoners Wives are were coming along to the prison and unfortunately they weren't able to get in straight away and they were all queued up in the cold outside so somebody said we could help these people so they they threw the doors open and offer them coffee and stuff like that that is brilliant that all that sort of stuff is Faith and if you actually go to some government Department somewhere and say what is the contribution in this County um from Faith what is it worth financially sets aside the the the tourism people coming to look at Wally Abbey or wherever but just what what did they make of it and I think they would quantify it certainly in the millions and it's it's it's you know phenomenal the help that they are to people and taking the strain wherever possible of some of the other resources that are are needed the police recently have come to the faith communities and said look we're having to deal with a lot of stuff that we don't really think is we're the best people to deal with you know with a lot I was talking to the chief Constable um about six months or so ago and he told me that um something like 80% of all calls of the police could really be dealt with better by somebody else and he was saying to the faith communities look can you help is there anything you can do that you can and they're taking up challenges like that so that the police themselves can go and deal with some of the n wells that we have and and that is is so faith is flourishing there's no doubt about that but at the same time sitting down for a mass or for an act of worship that perhaps in some cases isn't quite as it could be I'd Is there Demand for Faith Based Media? love to share with you a survey that was done this may I believe this year um uh I've been when thinking I read this a while ago but I really wanted to get your take on it which was it overwhelmingly showed demand for high quality faith and belief media coverage much more of it um which the people who did the survey found quite surprising what do you think about that from a broadcaster perspective broadcasting point of view um I'm reminded of something that I learned a long time ago uh from another survey and um the feeling was that there should be more more nature programs on tell people love their nature programs BBC should go and make tons more nature programs get out there get the cameras out there get all the get all the wild animals filmed and all this sort of thing and uh so the BBC actually went down that road a bit and did some of that always to find nobody watched it well said nobody watched it people did watch it but not in the numbers that the survey suggests and I think there is a lot of times where people do a survey they fill in the the the survey and say yes I would certainly watch hours and acres and Acres of Faith programming on television please give me more of it and when you put it on uh it doesn't achieve what the survey says so that is what I would say to that survey however if you're asking me is there enough on and how diverse is it and should it be more of it or what have you um I think think about right really I mean I I sometimes you can watch stuff you know it's not actually labeled as a religious program and a faith program but it's actually got a lot of stuff in there and you think to yourself well actually why do people do that oh they do that because they believe in such and such a thing I know the BBC is very interested in in in doing more on ethics and morals and debates on um you know how we should go forward and why people do stuff what they do now you might not describe that as religious because because they don't actually go into some sort of religious building and and do it on on that basis but the bottom line is they are talking about a society doing good for people around them and isn't that what Jesus Christ was all about and so I think we're about right I think I don't I I'm very wary of surveys that tell me that we should have more football on the tell or we should have more this on the tell or more that on the tell because when they come to put it on very often the the audiences and also it has to be said to the audience is so diverse now um that audience figures are such that you can find the kind of content you want on your tablet on your your computer on wherever you want to watch it any night of the week really whenever you want 247 it's there and I mean for instance before what 30 years ago we never had religious channels on the radio never got Premier Christian radio do a brilliant job and there's others as well UCB and all these they all do good jobs this podcast on your own and all sorts of stuff um so I don't think there ever been I don't think there end ever been more you know I just just think there's so much of it around um but it is fragmented you have to find it but that's the same with pretty much any topic you want really right and final thought is going Hope for the Future? down the line that you've listed so many things and you cover so many things on your show about what good people in churches in social groups in communities uh are doing um looking further down the line at you know the younger Generations do you have hope in what sense um you mean in broadcasting or do you mean in in the world in terms of the world clearly you know I mean they how many people do you know of that sort of like are 18 19 and decide I'm going to go and help the good people of Afghanistan or I'm going to help the good people of whoever people do it all the time um yes is the only thing where I think there's a discussion to be had is that we kind of have to stop thinking about a person's only doing good if they're coming out of a religious building and there are lots and lots and lots and lots of people millions of people who are living the life that Jesus Christ would want them to live but they don't acknowledge that in prayer or by going to church or whatever they' not acknowledge it because inside of them there is a good person wanting to do well and wanting to go and help the world and um I I don't think we can count um people doing well and expressing good practice by the amount of people go to church it is about the amount of people who just do stuff whether they and and if they if they were to look back at what they've done they said oh you know that's what is in the gospel or you know there was a I read There Was An epistle and it was in that one um they just go and do it right they just go and help and and they may do it because they politically feel that way or they're just because that socially they feel they should do it oh it could be they're just walking down the street and they see somebody and they think I have got to help that person the seek tradition whereby they they do their you know they will not walk past the person who's being threatened uh and if they you know feel that they have to intervene they will do other people will do that now they may not be seeks right they may not have been anywhere near they probably couldn't even spell the word right but they will still do it because it's inside them and so if you're saying is goodness still about in the world in space there's no question about that but if you're saying is it all going to come out of faith I don't know what the future of faith and and denominational religion is I suspect that long after I've left this planet under two years 200 years time there will probably be a ma a massive merging over the years of different views and political thinking and and social thinking in one way or another um people will probably um be a lot more just go out and do stuff rather than feel that they have to go out and do stuff and and sort of account for it uh on a Sunday morning or whever I I remember somebody saying to me once that they believed a lot of faith and this is their view I'm not saying it's mine but their view was that faith is is basically about um controlling people that it's about you know you tell them that they can do do this they can do that they can do the other um and they can't do this and they can't do that and they can't do the other um somebody once said to me about the Roman Catholic tradition as said I'm I'm merely re reping relaying what they said um but they said that there's a drinking culture at times in the Roman Catholic church because they don't allow sex and anything else but they'll let them drink because they've got to give them something now I don't whether that's true or whether it's false or what it is I don't know right um some people will look at society and say well I you for instance won won't touch caffeine and things like that um some people will look at it that's it's not for me that not having any of that I like a cup of tea too much I like a a can of Coke too much but I'll still do all the stuff you want to do I'll still go out and help people I'll still go and knock on the door of the old lady down the street and say do you want me to paint your fence for you I'll still go and do all that but don't label as as being part of that Faith because I don't believe this bit that's the bit I don't believe and I think there's an awful lot of people who either wittingly or unwittingly lead their lives like that thank you Joe I love your show um big fan of yours and you I hope people listening you don't have to be in Lancashire to listen to Joe's show you can go online to BBC Radio lure every Sunday and and listen to it you can listen to it on demand as well so it doesn't even have to be on a Sunday but I really appreciate you giving me an hour of your time and and thank you very much no no problem all right look out to yourself you too see you later [Music] bye thanks for watching for all the saints this show needs your help to grow please like the video comment your thoughts subscribe to the channel and share this with someone you think would enjoy it thank you