Tully Kearney - Paralympic Swimmer - Autism

[Music] Hello everyone and thank you so much for joining  us to watch our Neurodiverse Sport athlete vlog!   So this week we are joined by Tully Kearney  - she's a paralympic swimmer and she also   has Autism - although Autism has nothing to do  with her categorisation as a paralympic athlete.   Um so it's a really interesting dynamic there  um and she'll talk about that a bit more in the   interview, and it's also International Women's  Day this week, so we'd like to give a shout   out to that. But without further ado, over to  Tully to tell you her story in her own words. So I was diagnosed with Asperger's when  I was nine. I think for me I always knew   that I was a little bit different to other  people, but because I also had a physical   disability I wasn't quite sure what it was. I  just knew that I found it hard to communicate   what I need and what I wanted and and  kinda make friendships, and I actually   through all my school years, all my friends were  males because they're a much simpler and easier to   make friends with - there weren't all these social  rules that I couldn't understand. Um with boys,   they didn't care, like if you fell out they didn't  care, they'd forget it and you'd be best friends   again the next day whereas with girls it was - I  couldn't deal with all these social rules of like   having to know how to react and how other people  would react... um so it did affect me quite a lot   but - and I don't know if it's because of my  disability - but when I was diagnosed I kind   of was a bit in denial about it. I think again  I was one of those people that had heard like   Autism was something else, Autism was people  with learning difficulties and and I was like   "well that isn't me" and that - at that point I  didn't know many people like me, to compare myself   um against - and I think that's sometimes where  the issue is. [Caragh] Yeah. [Tully] That you get   compared a lot to other people that - obviously  Autism is a spectrum - but that also have a   learning disability, and their Autism and their  learning disability together are quite severe. I'd love to know a bit more about other  people's views in sport of Autism,   or what you perceived them to be. Because  you said that you didn't disclose your Autism   for a long time. [Tully] I think for me, when I  first made the team, there were quite a few people   um in the S14 category - which is intellectually  impaired - that were known to be Autistic,   but obviously had a learning disability as  well, and the way that they were treated was   pretty bad. Um obviously this was a long time ago  and I'm very glad to say it's not the case now,   um but no one took the time to explain and  given them what they needed to understand.   If they were struggling and had  - I don't like referring to it as   a meltdown but - because a meltdown kind  of sounds like it's a behavioural issue,   and also it's not a behavioural issue. [Caragh]  Yeah. [Tully] But they were struggling to the   point where they couldn't function - let's  say that - um they weren't kind at all. They   were actually really rude and basically told  them to grow up, um and get on with it - and   that's not helpful at all - and I think part of  that is the lack of understanding and knowledge.   Um they were also - because of that - they  were deemed as you know "hard to deal with",   "hard to handle", so they weren't taken on all the  training camps and competitions and they just had   a lot less opportunities... and I saw that and I  didn't want to be part of it. I was like that is   the one thing that I don't want to be a part  of. Um and so I decided that we wouldn't tell   anyone - and I think any athlete that's been to or  been on the long list for a Games will know that   even on the long list, way way way in advance  if the Games, way before the trials have even   happened, you have to disclose all of your  medical information from your GP - every   single document that has ever been written about  you, including obviously diagnosis. So for me, I   knew that my Autism diagnosis was going to come up  because it was in my medical file and that was...   um so my first opportunity was 2012,  but I dislocated my shoulder and it   didn't happen - but obviously this was  way before that, so the doctor... I had   to trust that the doctor wasn't going to tell  anyone, and that was really nerve-wracking.   Um and obviously I was quite new on the team - I  made my first year in 2011 - so only a year later   for the doctor to find out that  I was obviously hiding something,   um I was really nervous. But luckily  no one found out. Same thing for Rio   um, and again I had to withdraw so it  didn't end up going, but by the time   Tokyo came around a few people did know, so  it wasn't as - a fear. At that point I didn't   want athletes and things to know but - so  I wasn't as fearful about that - but when   you're hiding something that's in medical  notes, that people have access to... it is   it just makes that anxiety so much worse, that  "err because if someone finds out in this way,   this is really bad" - like it's not going  to be a good way for someone to find out,   like through my medical records or through like  the doctor questioning something. [Caragh] Yeah. As I went on I think I kind of realised - like I  kind of went from being in denial, to realising   how more Autistic - how my Autism actually  affects me, and that I definitely was Autistic.   Um like it became pretty obvious to  me, um and obviously the older I got,   the more I noticed the difference between me  and my peers, um and the harder it became - and   especially like, I don't like being in massive  groups, especially with new people um I get quite   a lot of social anxiety... and it's not just about  being in a big group, it's like I don't know how   people are going to react and respond, and I don't  like not knowing because there are... a couple of   people out there that don't react well to things -  especially like if you're trying to joke around -   um and I don't like confrontation. So I just  get very nervous about "oh god is this - are   they going to get upset? Is there going to be  a confrontation?" So, I would quite rather pull   myself to the side of the room, and just speak  to one or two - maybe three athletes at the time,   rather than having to interact in a whole group.  So that's obviously affected my relationship with   the other athletes, and I think because people  didn't understand because they didn't know I was   Autistic, I do think sometimes it I came across as  rude. [Caragh] Yeah. [Tully] They thought that I   didn't like them, which obviously wasn't  the case, but they didn't know that... and   I really don't think that's helped um over the  years, and there's just some days where I can't   cope with social interaction, like I just - I'm  too anxious, or I just don't have enough energy   to deal with it - especially back then when  I was masking, it just takes so much energy   that I would rather... like if we were in the gym  stretching before pool, I'd rather sit outside,   or sit in the like the corner and not speak to  anyone, and it does look really antisocial um... And then there were things like, we had  like um team building activities... but   when you swim at a national centre,  when there's less than ten of you,   um that's obviously quite difficult. If there's  one like - especially if there's people that you   don't get on with - there's one athlete that's  been bullying me for quite a few years um... and   just knows how to wind me up, to the point where I  can't cope anymore, and then obviously I ended up   having to go at this athlete and then it looks bad  on me! And it's just - obviously it's frustrating,   so I'd rather avoid those situations um...  [Caragh] Why are they doing that? [Tully] I think,   I think they want the team spirit, and I think  they think that it's the way of getting that...   but obviously because they didn't know I was  Autistic, they didn't realize how detrimental   to my mental health that's been - and it has -  that was one of the biggest things for years.   I had so much anxiety... like sometimes um - there  was this one occasion like that they wanted us to   go to one of the swimming flats, and I just wasn't  comfortable, but they kept pushing and pushing and   pushing and saying "no you need to go", and I  was like "well I don't feel comfortable going",   um and I ended up sitting - I got  to outside the swimmers flats,   um and the athletes - um obviously I had to  wait for them to get home - just walked past   me and ignored me... and I don't wanna be  there anyway, so I literally was sat in a   really bad like rainstorm - typical Manchester,  like chucking it down - like literally just   really anxious and crying... just sat in the  street, like for hours. Um and I was just...   that was kind of one of the turning points-  I was like "I can't be doing that again",   um and I kind of became a bit more stern then -  that if someone's like "oh you need to go and do   this forced social interaction", I was like "no".  But it's one of those which you're worried like...   when it's, when you swim - especially when you  swim at a national centre - your coach is a GB   coach, all the support staff are GB, so they  know what you're doing, and if you refuse to   do something, it's always that worry - luckily  it doesn't happen now - but like previously, if   you didn't want to do something they'd be like "oh  well you know we can take your funding off you"...   um but because that's happened previously  - I know it wouldn't happen now - it's   always in my head. [Caragh] Yeah absolutely.  [Tully] Unforgotten. So it's all - I always   felt pressured like "oh well, um that'll mean  like I'm not adhere into the rules of ROAR,   and I'm not doing this and I'm not doing  that..." and and it made me like super super   anxious - to the point where that coupled  with other things, like my mental health   was just really really bad, and I didn't  really know how to get through it um... Because of some of my other medical  conditions I had to isolate, which   for me it was actually kind of a blessing in  disguise that I didn't have to socialise with   anyone, and I loved it and... [Caragh] I had  the same thing - I got all my PBs after lock   down! [Tully] And one of the, one of the big  eye-openers for me is that before, our IAP   um meetings to set our individual athlete goals  like every year - every season - would happen   like three or four times a season, but because  I'm in a national centre environment, and a lot   of the staff back then were based in Manchester,  we had to go to the office to do it and sit in a   room with like 10 people... doing it over lockdown  it was on Zoom, and I found it, my anxiety was so   much less on Zoom, because if it gets too much you  can just close the computer and say like "I need a   five minute break", and come back... when you're  sat at a table with 10 people - sometimes even   more - it is just so daunting, and you kind of  feel like everyone's just judging and like staring   at you and you're just like "urgh". [Caragh]  Yeah. [Tully] Whereas like... that was one of   the biggest things was like actually I much prefer  to do meetings on Zoom. [Caragh] Yeah. [Tully] Um   it just really helps me. [Caragh] Yeah, and it's  such a simple thing isn't it? Like, and I guess   it then gives you more energy to - it's not  like you don't want to be social ever, because   there are contexts in sport where you want  to be social, and you need to be social   um... to do the sport - but I guess it's like  everybody recovers in different ways and like   lives and thrives in different ways, so you know  for you it might look like being social for the   sport and then making sure you get your down time  to decompress somewhere else - where it's quiet,   um and there's not so much sensory input - and  actually that will make a huge difference, and   does it actually detract from the team? I would  argue not, some people would say that you need   to be in each other's pockets all the time, um my  opinion is that you don't, but you know I could be   wrong! [Tully] We also had like Zoom sessions for  our gym sessions, so instead of being like in a   tiny gym together obviously it was all over Zoom.  So the coach was kind of just watching the screens   of everyone and I actually felt that we were  interacting more on Zoom than we were when we're   right next to each other in a tiny gym! [Caragh]  Interesting. [Tully] So yeah, I I know some people   didn't like it, but I found it way more way more  beneficial and like um, team Zoom core sessions   like I actually loved! I actually trained  more in lockdown than I have done in years,   and I think part of - obviously I have a lot of  issues with my shoulder, and training with - like   coping with training load - and part of that is  the anxiety. I just don't have enough energy left   to recover... [Caragh] Yeah. [Tully] Efficiently  between training sessions and that was like a   massive eye-opener... and that's kind of when I  decided that I wanted my coach and like a couple   of the sports staff to know about my diagnosis,  and I felt like it would actually really help. I'd been working with my coach at that point  for almost eight years and I knew that he   knew and understood me, but I thought he might  understand me slightly better if he knew why   um, and also some other staff, and obviously  staff that were the ones that were doing the   forced social interactions - like I I wanted  that to stop. Because it was actually really   harmful to my mental health, and um obviously  the - it's actually quite interesting because   um, we had a new coach in Manchester this season,  and I actually chose to go to one of the social   events - but it's, it's having that choice.  Like not being forced into it because there's   some things that like I actually think it's really  useful and I enjoy doing, but there's other things   that would be too difficult, or I'm struggling  too much at that point in time to cope with it,   so it's not always that - because that was one  of the biggest fears is that if I tell them,   are they then just going to cut me  out of every social interaction?   Um because I don't want that, it's just  sometimes I kind of want the option to pick   and choose. [Caragh] It's being able to manage  yourself - like you are the best expert of your   brain. [Tully] Yeah. [Caragh] And you know how  much energy you have and you should be trusted   to put it into the right places  and to prioritise the right things. So I went to our PL at the time -  performance lifestyle advisor - who   um I really trusted um and was great,  and her mum had actually worked with   um people who were Autistic, so she knew like a  great amount and we basically went through and   planned like how we were going to say it. Because  I was really nervous, like obviously I'd kept   this a secret for over 10 years like, how are they  going to react? And um we kind of went through and   we said like that "this is my diagnosis", "this is  how it positively impacts me as an athlete", "this   is the thing - these are the things I struggle  with", and "these are things I want you to change   and try and help me with", and that actually came  across really well, and uh after that some of the   coaches did like a course - like an education  course about Autism and how they can help people   with Autism - and it kind of, it was kind of  good. It came at a time where they were trying   to get better at helping people with mental health  like, um I guess kind of invisible - I don't know,   I don't want class Autism as a disability,  but it comes under that - within sport it   comes under that umbrella... [Caragh] It's a  protected characteristic, yeah. [Tully] Yeah,   um so it was kind of a good time that they  were already doing - they were already going   to do stuff, um and it was quite interesting  because like my coach was like - he hadn't   put it together that was Autistic, but he was  like "I knew what you needed, and I knew you   had all the traits of Autism, it just hadn't  clicked that you were actually Autistic!" Um and some other staff were uh quite shocked -  but they're the staff that I'm not as close with,   that don't - I think they just  thought I was rude and miserable   to be around. [Caragh] That's so sad!  Um and how did they react? [Tully]   Umm... they were very quiet for a while. [Caragh]  Be honest! [Tully] I think it was just like - they   were like "I wasn't expecting that" um... [Caragh]  Yeah, and they don't - sometimes they don't know   what to do. [Tully] No. [Caragh] I feel like  people don't know what to do, so they're like   "um... right..." [Tully] And I think they were  also like a bit worried about why I'd set the   meeting, so I think part of it was a relief  because... I think people that know me, know   that I have a lot of crazy ideas and sometimes  like when I'm like "oh can I speak to you about   an idea", my coach is like "oh god, not again" -  so I think they were a bit like, partly relieved   that it wasn't like a ridiculous idea or something  stupid that I wanted to do, it was like um - yeah   I think it was that shock and not really, not  really knowing... [Caragh] Also not being equipped   as well, like if people don't have the background  knowledge and understanding, and maybe some tools   in in their toolbox, then it's almost like you've  presented them with something, and they're like   "I don't..." like they don't know what to do!  [Tully] Yep. [Caragh] And that's why - I guess   that's what what I'm doing with Neurodiverse Sport  - because I had a similar situation to you in that   um... understanding myself - getting a late  diagnosis, understanding myself - and then   sharing almost like my communication plan with  the coaches had such a hugely positive impact,   but it continued to be on me to advocate for  myself, to explain myself to every single person,   any any new person that came in or out,   um and it was a bit potluck as to like what their  preconception of something like Autism was, and um   and like that's why I think there needs to be a  better basis of understanding of neurodiversity   in sport. Like everybody's neurology,  everybody's behaviour traits are different   um, and it's not that you need to like understand  every possible combination - because that's   impossible. [Tully] Yeah. [Caragh] But it's  just understanding that there is difference   and how to - potentially like how to work  with an athlete to understand them... From what you're saying it sounds like  things have moved on a lot even since   like five or ten years ago... [Tully] Oh  yeah yeah - we we had a big change so...   um there was quite a lot of change before Tokyo  and then after Tokyo we've had a whole merger - we   had a merge and whole restructure - so we're now  not para swimming, we're swimming as a whole,   so all the aquatic disciplines; the able bodied  swimming, the para swimming, diving, uh artistic   swimming, we're all one - uh and water polo as  well. [Caragh] Do you think that's good? [Tully]   At first I hated it because it was a hell of a  lot of change, and I don't like change. I really   struggle with change. So um obviously like  just just over a year ago my coach was made   redundant... um in the change, and like that...  when you've worked with someone for that long it's   really really difficult. [Caragh] Especially the  coach that you just - that's the coach that you   just said knew a lot about you - that's a shame.  [Tully] And for for me especially around racing I   struggle with all of... partly because I have a  dodgy shoulder, and I can't swim as much as I'd   like to, I get a bit worried about where I'm at  fitness wise, but also... it's all the sensory   input - it's a lot. Like going to a massive meet  and having all of that noise and the lights and   everything - it's a lot - and he was the only  person that knew exactly what to say to me. So,   I relied on him heavily, and I I definitely over  relied on him, and while he's, now he's not there,   I really struggle. Um so that, that was a  massive change like whenever... I would go   to him for everything... literally anything  and everything - and even if it wasn't some   related. Uh we had a really good relationship  so that's... that was really really hard for me,   and he's the one person that's been there  throughout... like as my dystonia got worse and   progressed and I became more disabled, he's the  one person that had been there throughout it all,   um as well as the physio, but it was quite -  it's kind of - it's difficult to lose that. I guess in terms of like the future, I think  like - I like... [Tully] I like that it's merged   yeah. [Caragh] I like that it's merged, because I  don't, I don't think it's helpful for anybody's um   perceptions of... like neurodiversity, or  para athletes, disability, intellectual   impairment... that everything that's different  is categorised in the same space, and then   everything that's not different is over  here. Because the subtext to that, is that   the able-bodied um neurotypical group um are  what is right. [Tully] Yeah. [Caragh] That's   what you aspire to and everybody  else is is different or wrong. I wanted to like just touch on something  you mentioned earlier which was ROAR...   do you want to like explain what that is? [Tully]  Uh so it was something written into the selection   policy quite a few years ago, and it made me  very nervous because obviously I like things   to be black and white, I know - I like to know  exactly what's expected, what's going to happen,   and ROAR's kind of not that. It's, it's basically  - they came up with different um values that they   wanted us to look up to, and basically follow  and adhere too, and that's kind of what they   thought an elite athlete should look like on the  team, and so it's like... is it responsibility,   ownership, respect? I can't remember what the A  is - I don't remember - I don't know what it is,   but basically like different values like that.  The issue I have is that I understand it, I get   it to an extent, but for someone that's Autistic  that's not very helpful - to not have like a full   layout of what it is - there is not a full  document explaining exactly what ROAR is,   which is where I struggle... and I kind of get, I  get the values, like they don't - they want you to   respect other people, they want you to have  ownership, and basically be responsible for   everything, you've got to make sure you're here  on time, you've got the right equipment, and and   that your nutrition, your recovery, everything  is perfect... which yeah I understand that,   but to have that written into a selection policy  when there isn't a document explaining exactly   what is and isn't ROAR, means that someone  like me gets very anxious and nervous because   I'm like well "am I adhering to it? Am I not  adhere into it? Have I done something wrong?"   Um and it's it's very very difficult, and  when I've asked to see if there is a document,   I've been told "well there isn't one", and I'm  like well "how do I know if I'm adhering to it or   not?" And they're like well "you'll be following  the values" - it's like yeah but like everything,   following a value is like a spectrum, like there's  - how far do you go to follow the value? Like,   is doing one thing following the value? Or is  doing 10 things following the value? [Caragh] And   how you interpret that value is different to  how somebody else interprets that value... You talk about anxiety a fair bit, but like as,  just as there's this preconception that Autism   equals intellectual impairment which it doesn't,  Autism I would argue also doesn't equate to having   anxiety either... but, if you've had a lot of  bad experiences where you've been misunderstood,   and you've not been able to communicate,  and people have misinterpreted your actions,   then it's almost like that's what fosters the  anxiety. [Tully] Yeah, definitely. [Caragh] And   I think that's another sort of myth to bust.  [Tully] Yeah. [Caragh] Because I think...   coaches, teammates, support staff, like you  don't want them to hear the word Autism and   think "difficult", "anxious", "da, da,  da..." like no. An Autistic person can be   an absolute weapon, like if they're put  in the right environment. [Tully] I think   for me my anxiety is from like the not  knowing how people are going to respond,   not knowing how to socially interact with  people, and then obviously from trauma   and past experience... like, I had a very bad  experience the first year I was in Manchester   um with a coach who was very like verbally and  emotionally abusive, and I have PTSD from that,   which means that my trust in anyone to do with  the national governing body is very - it's gotten   better over the years - but I struggle with, I  struggle with trust, I struggle with anxiety,   um I struggle a lot with communicating,  getting across what I need and that is   obviously massively heightened from my Autism  - it's, that's not how I ever was before,   um but from these past trauma events, it affects  me a lot, a lot more now than it, than it ever   did. [Caragh] Yeah. [Tully] I mean for me social  anxiety is something I've always struggled with,   because it's the fear of the unknown.  [Caragh] Yeah. [Tully] It's like how - for   me it's always been like the fear of how  to communicate and how to respond and... I decided because of the PTSD and the  trauma and everything that's happened to me   um, over the summer because of an injury I  actually ended up spending three months in   Loughborough, and when I was there I realised how  much easier my life is, how much like - I have so   much less anxiety, I have more energy to recover  and train, I was able to do a lot more training,   um and especially like the the atmosphere  at Loughborough Uni is just so nice that   no one cared - no one cared that I was  different and needed different things and   and I've decided to relocate there and I knew  that I wanted to start on like the right foot.   I didn't want to move and have athletes not  understanding me, so I knew that it was,   it was the right time it was the right decision,  and I knew that I would be supported by the other   swimmers and obviously by by the support staff,  and I just felt that like not having to hide it   would just be such a great fresh start and and  it has really helped, but again I've had comments   from people like "oh it must be so great not to  have to mask", and it's like you don't just flip   it off like a switch. [Caragh] Yeah. [Tully] Not  like suddenly "oh I'm, I'm back to being me from   like me 10 years ago" after like hiding it this  long like, that's not how it happens. But I do   feel like slowly but surely I am coming more out  of my shell. [Caragh] Yeah, and I totally like   get that. I'm, I feel like I'm in the same place  as you as well, and you know what actually I went   to Loughborough the other day - um Loughborough  University - and I got exactly the same vibe as   you. I was like "this is so great here", and it  really shows like your experience of moving and   um being genuine, being open, and  being accepted by other people,   to me like one of the things  that I have picked up on saying   um is that it's environments that are  disabling not conditions, because for me   although some people feel disabled by their  conditions, I I genuinely think that if they were   in the right environment for them - they wouldn't  feel disabled. So for me like... [Tully] I   I totally agree with that. It's gonna sound  weird to other people but I, I'm a full-time   wheelchair user... I don't feel disabled if I'm  out and about, unless I try and get somewhere and   there's no step-free access, and then I feel like  I'm disabled by the environment because I can't   access it - not because I'm in a wheelchair,  but because there's a step. [Caragh] Yeah. What do you think your neurodivergent strengths  are - like what does your Autism give you that   makes you a good athlete? [Tully] I think, one  of the things for me is that I obviously from   the years of watching on, and learning social  behaviours, and masking, I have obviously seen   a lot of, a lot of things um so I pay - I pay like  a lot a lot of attention to detail to everything,   and I think part of that is just from the Autism  - just watching people to to learn how to socially   interact. Um but because of that, I'm very good at  problem solving, I'm very good at - I have quite a   wide knowledge of how to get around things and  um how to come up with things that... I've got   quite an engineering brain, so if I've got an  issue and I can't overcome it - whether it's an   access issue, or like a piece of equipment that  doesn't quite work for me - I'm very good at   um knowing how to fix it and just coming up  with solutions. Um and I do think that how much   time I spent growing up watching other people  - observing, really helped me with that.   Um I'm also like, I think a lot of Autistic people  refer to themselves as kind of black or white,   like I'm not, I'm not slack, I'm not one of those  people that will just have a goggle break - like   pretend their goggles are broken and just like  slack - that's not me. Uh if anything I actually,   I always want to do more. My coaches always have  to have a go and then tell me off - I'm like   "give me my limits", but I'm extremely, like  extremely extremely hard working, and like   once I've got a goal I don't want to let myself  down, I don't let anyone else down. So once I've   got a goal, I'm gonna do everything I can in my  power to get there... and I'm like pretty stubborn   with that, and I do think my Autism has actually  helped me with that, because I don't like change,   I don't like - like if I said something,  I don't want something else to happen...   so it's like if I set it, I mean  business. And um I think as well   like even though I do struggle in social  situations, because I don't like conflict,   I don't like - but I don't like when people  tell tales and tell stories and like - about   other people. So I am very loyal, like once  I'm your friend, that's it, I'm not gonna go   behind your back like that - and if you go behind  mine that's like - I guess one of the downfalls   is that that's it. The trust is broken forever.  But I do think like that is one of my strengths,   is that I I prefer to have a few friends  rather than loads, but be really close to them. People assume that people with Autism  don't understand what other people need,   don't think about them, and they're not very  kind or caring, and that's definitely a myth.   [Caragh] 100%, like 100% yeah. [Tully] Um  and for me kind of sometimes to my downfall,   is that I'm always thinking about other  people. [Caragh] Yeah. [Tully] So I kind   of go - sometimes go above and beyond -  to do little things, and because I'm so,   I observe so many things, like I'll remember  things, and I'll surprise someone... like   um I'll randomly turn up with someone's favourite  cake, or like make them a t-shirt with their cat   on or like something like - just some something  little that means a lot to them - that they   wouldn't, that other people wouldn't necessarily  think of. It's kind of like the little things. So   like often like my work with charities and  stuff is that I'm just very determined to   to make a change so that other people don't have  to go through the similar things, so if there's   anything I can do to make anyone else's life a  bit easier - even sometimes if that means that   like I have to struggle for a few weeks to  fit everything in, then then I'll do it. What would you like to see change or move  forwards in this space - like neurodiversity   and Sport? [Tully] I think one of the things  is that - obviously it, we've spoke about how   it's a spectrum, like people are different um, and  obviously to try and break down the stigmas - but   I have had some people especially since I posted  a lot on social media be like "oh well I know one   Autistic person..." like that - just because  you know one the Autistic person, doesn't mean   you know all of us. Um so I I think obviously  it's great to get that awareness out there,   but I still want coaches to be pushed to learn  about their individual athlete. Because knowing   something generally about Autism - I mean yeah it  will help to an extent, but everyone is different,   everyone faces different challenges, so if they  can actually learn about their own individual   athlete and exactly what they need - that will  be the best way to get the best out of their   athlete and also protect their mental health  going forward. [Caragh] And it doesn't just   help Autistic or neurodivergent people in general,  it helps everyone. [Tully] Yep. [Caragh] Because   whether you're in this classification of  neurotypical - which still, it covers like   a multitude of different neurology and behaviour  traits - like every single person is different,   and yes in sport and in team sport sometimes  everybody has to do the same thing, but if   coaches can understand each athlete and just make  those little tweaks here and there - ultimately   everybody's experience and performance  will improve. So you know, neuroinclusion   doesn't just help the people  who are furthest from the norm,   it helps everyone. So it's  something that's worth investing in. I know it's quite hard for yourself to  think about the best way for someone - I   don't know if it's just an Autism thing, or  if it's just me - but I find it really hard   to actually think about "oh well how  would I want someone to go about it?"   Um obviously the obvious things like I don't want  to shout at me - but it's like those little things   that I struggle with thinking of - but it would be  like you know if the coach has got a neurodiverse   person that potentially has social anxiety, it  could be useful for them to write certain things   like how they respond, how they would like to  be approached, and the best way - like is it   better to phone them? Is it better to text them?  And then like kind of match their pages together   and see what works best for both both of them.  [Caragh] That's such a great idea. I love that.   Um that's your practical problem solving there. If people wanted   to contact you, would you be happy with that?  If they wanted to contact you to get any advice,   or yeah I don't know maybe just to pay you a  compliment! [Tully] Yeah - happy for people   to contact me uh on Instagram - that's  probably the thing I look at most... just   for people to be aware, there are  some times - like if I don't respond,   I'm not ignoring you. But maybe if I don't  respond in a month, send me another message   because sometimes I get overwhelmed with requests  and I don't see them all. [Caragh] Yeah. For   now it's been like really great to talk to you  and your cat - where is he? There he is - what   a chonker! Yeah, thank you so much and  have a great day. [Tully] Thank you. [Music]