DUP And SDLP MPs In Really INTENSE, Fascinating Debate?

Intro to DUP And SDLP MPs In Really INTENSE, Fascinating Debate? So it's not fair to say, D’you know  what, DUP? Take it or leave it. In  or out.” Sorry, I don’t understand  that, because I think what  John was talking about was inclusion.  Who has excluded the DUP? I can  tell you who has excluded  the DUP. The DUP themselves.  Do you know what people really  think about why the DUP are  not going into government. Let me tell  you: they don’t think it is anything  to do with the protocol. I don’t know  what the real reason is, but I think a  lot of people think it’s because there  is going to be a First Minister from a  nationalist perspective. there is not the money for the   transformation that is needed in our health service. Shall we just not bother,   then? Seriously, is that the position—“It’s very hard,   so we’re not going to bother”? That was the DUP MP Carla Lockhart, getting   into a fascinating debate with SDLP leader Colum  Eastwood, in last weeks Northern Ireland Affairs   Committee meeting. On the effectiveness of the  institutions of the Belfast Good Friday Agreement.  A truly fascinating debate between these two. So  who do you guys think is more in the right here?  Carla Lockhart and Colum Eastwood. Thank you, Colum, for your  evidence this morning. It  has been quite measured. I’m always measured Carla! Come on.  But still a little bit DUP-obsessed.  But that’s nothing new,  I suppose, and that’s politics. I suppose  there is quite often the perception  that there is an intolerance for the  Unionist viewpoint, particularly on a  number of issues. I will just walk  through them and ask you for your  response on them. Obviously, the big issue:   you have talked about the protocol and the Windsor framework, and the DUP and what we   are asking for. We are asking for solutions.   We want solutions for our businesses that are  impacted by the protocol. You only  have to look at manufacturing,  agriculture, and all of those different  industries. They are absolutely key  pillars within our country and for  the prospering of our country, so we  want solutions for them. Surely you, as an individual and   as a very active public rep, see that we need solutions for them. You say that   Stormont can resolve those issues, but they sit very firmly within the   UK Government’s gift. It is important that you recognise that, and that   we get solutions, because we have seen very clearly that we have been sitting   in Stormont for over a year trying to get solutions and have got nowhere.   It was not until the DUP took action that we actually made some progress   around the Windsor framework. What solutions do you want, though?  The solution is that Northern  Ireland’s place in the UK’s  internal market be restored. You need  only look at horticulture; I have had  emails this week to say that we still  cannot get trees from GB to Northern  Ireland. It is impacting trade. Or  look at the veterinary medicines issue.  There are lots of issues that are  really impacting businesses in Northern  Ireland; I think it is important  that you recognise those.  To be quite honest, regarding the  protocol and the Windsor framework, it  does seem to the Unionist community  that you are quite happy for there  to be a border down the Irish sea  but not one on the island of Ireland,  and none of us supports a border on  the island of Ireland. I think it is  important that you use the opportunity  to reaffirm that you want to see a  resolution on those issues. I suppose I am one of the people who argued most  strongly to not have economic borders  anywhere. I am a real believer in  the customs union and the single  market, unlike your party; you argued  for us to be pulled out of those  institutions and taken out of the biggest  trading bloc on the planet, not  recognising that there are two parts of the  island of Ireland. Now one part is in  the single market and customs union  and the other part isn’t—or wouldn’t  be, if the DUP had got their way. I  just think it is very hard to square. It is not about nationalists and where   we want to draw a border. I don’t want a border anywhere, but this is   about the practical reality of trade. We have a 300-mile border with nearly 300   border crossings, not just one. Sometimes you listen to people in   the Chamber, not that far away from here, and you would think it was   just one big motorway that you can control. There are back roads and   country roads. I think that the DUP’s position has made absolutely no sense.  I recognise, of course, that there  are issues. There are impositions that  result from leaving a trading bloc.  That was kind of what we were saying  during the referendum campaign. We  have worked very diligently with the  British Government, the Irish  Government and the European Union to try  to resolve a lot of those issues. I would  just say that I think most people in  manufacturing think the Windsor  framework is a very good thing,  actually—the opportunity to trade across  the world as a result of basically  being back in the single market. On agriculture, large parts of the   agricultural industry were doing all- Ireland co-ops long before the Good   Friday agreement was even created, because they understood the benefits,   in terms of raw numbers, of working in that way. Leaving   the European Union is not a very good thing for the agriculture industry, in my view.  As I said, we are open to listening  and we are trying to give space, but  there will come a moment—very  soon, I think—that the British  Government have to say to the DUP,  “Either you’re in or you’re out,  because this doesn’t work. What more  do you want?” I think the Windsor  framework was a victory for the DUP  and you should take it and run with  it.  I have heard there are discussions  around the sidelines about the DUP  wanting something strong on the  Union and on the fact that Northern  Ireland will remain part of the  United Kingdom. Well, as somebody who  wants to change that, I can guarantee  you that we won’t support anything  that removes the consent principle.  That is written in stone, as far as I’m  concerned. As the Good Friday  agreement says, we will not have  constitutional change unless a majority  of people, both north and south,  change it. There is no greater  guarantee, and there is no piece of paper  that Rishi Sunak can write on that  gives you a greater guarantee than  that. The consent principle,   which of course was always a Unionist demand, is enshrined in the Good Friday agreement. I,   a nationalist who wants to change the Union, am telling you that   we will never support that principle being removed. There is no greater   guarantee. There is nothing that Rishi Sunak can do that will better guarantee   your place in the United Kingdom as long as people want it.  We will see. I hope there is a resolution  soon, because I do not think this  is sustainable, and the DUP’s  position is becoming very hard to  understand. Surely the consent   principle is being undermined when you want to push out the views   of the Unionist community—in fact, all Unionist MLAs and all Unionist parties do   not agree with the imposition of the protocol—  That is not what the consent  principle is about. I have  heard it said by DUP representatives  and the DUP leader that the consent  principle is somehow about everybody  agreeing with everything. That is  not what it is about. I want to put this on the record:   the consent principle is fairly basic and fairly simple. It was a Unionist demand   for decades. The consent principle is solely about the constitutional   position of Northern Ireland. It means that the people of Northern Ireland   and the people of the Republic of Ireland, in concurrent referendums,   will decide the future of Northern Ireland constitutionally. It does not   mean that on every single issue in the Northern Ireland Assembly or anywhere   else we all have to agree. I was there in the Assembly for nine years;   I don’t remember ever having consensus. Consensus and   consent are two different things. I do not give my consent to be part   of the UK, but I recognise that the majority do, so I have to live with   that until I can convince people to change it. That is what consent   means. I think there has been confusion— in my view, deliberate confusion—about what   the consent principle is actually about.  That aside, I want the DUP to feel  comfortable with the changes that have  been made, but there are only so  many more changes that can be made.  The EU and the British Government have  been absolutely clear, as recently  as Saturday in Oxford when the  Secretary of State said, “We will not be  reopening the Windsor framework.” I will also say this, based on my   involvement in politics and in the SDLP’s involvement in politics over the past five   decades: you don’t sit back and ask people for solutions;   you come up with them yourself. Q387 Carla Lockhart: In relation   to your now wading in again with the suggestions of Dublin interfering in the   internal affairs of Northern Ireland, surely—  That is in the Anglo-Irish agreement. You are basically saying,   “Threaten the DUP with this and it will hopefully move the negotiations   on.” Again, I remind you that the DUP don’t really—  That is exactly what happened  when Ian Paisley went  into Government with Martin McGuinness.  That’s exactly what happened.  In relation then to—oh gosh,  you’ve thrown me. I was  going to make a point around the  institutions and the effectiveness of  them. The DUP will continue  to take their stand on that.  It’s not a new thing. It had probably  slipped my mind, but I was doing  some reading up and was reminded  that, back in the day, Seamus Mallon  resigned as First Minister because  he was unhappy with the goings-on  within the Assembly, so it’s not a  new thing. It is a mechanism that is  there and readily available, and it  has been effective in actually getting  the UK Government to act. But I will bring you back—this   is my final point, Chair—to John Hume. You have spoken very glowingly about him   this morning, and I know that you and many others—indeed,   all of us—hold him in high regard for his efforts over the years. In 1985, he said   that “the bedrock of peace and order, the bedrock of justice   in every society, is consensus among the population on how it is governed.” In 1998,   he noted that “only the most extreme and self-deluded believe   it is possible to govern without inclusiveness. Only by incorporating   everybody into the decision-making process can we build stable,   democratic and legitimate institutions.” It is therefore not fair to say, “D’you know what,   DUP? Take it or leave it. In or out.”  Sorry, I don’t understand  that, because I think what  John was talking about was inclusion.  Who has excluded the DUP? I can  tell you who has excluded the DUP.  The DUP themselves—in the same way  as Sinn Féin excluded themselves  for three and a half years. You talk  about it being an effective tactic, but  it is not effective for those people  coming into my constituency office  every day of the week who are waiting  five or six years to see a consultant.  It is not effective for them. A quarter  of our population are on a hospital  waiting list. It is an absolute scandal.  You can have your discussions with  the British Government as much as  you want, but the impact of that is  real and somebody needs to tell you  it’s real. It is real for the people  who are being left behind as a result of  the DUP’s position. If you have a  position in politics, you have to own it  and you have to own the impacts of that position,   and I am telling you that the impacts of that   position include the destruction of the NHS in Northern Ireland, and many other things as well.  You have got more or less everything  you asked for in the Windsor  framework. Do you know what people  really think about why the DUP are  not going into government. Let me tell  you: they don’t think it is anything  to do with the protocol. I don’t know  what the real reason is, but I think a  lot of people think it’s because there  is going to be a First Minister from a  nationalist perspective. That is what  people think. I’m not saying that is  my position, but I’m telling you that  when people stop me in the streets in  Derry and everywhere else, they  tell me, “They just don’t want a  nationalist as First Minister.” Our party leader sat in   the same chair as you did and outlined that that was not the case—  Well, let’s have her elected  as First Minister, then.  All I would say is that you  need to be real with people  that, actually, if Stormont was  back up and running in the morning,  waiting lists would still be the same.  If you look at the infrastructure—  I have been a very vocal  critic of the DUP’s and Sinn  Féin’s delivery in government. I still  think it’s better that you be there than  not be. You may be critical of the DUP and Sinn Féin in  government, but if you look at your  own Ministers who governed over the  likes of infrastructure in the last  number of years, certainly some of the  decision making there is questionable. Which ones?  I don’t think we necessarily need  to do an autopsy on the past.  I do think it is important  that you are realistic with  constituents that if Stormont was  back up and running in the morning,  there is not the money for the  transformation that is needed in our health  service. Shall we just not   bother, then? Seriously, is that the position—“It’s very hard, so we’re not going   to bother”? I don’t understand that.  I think I’m asking you the questions. Well, I’m going to answer them.  In relation to devolution, we support devolution. Could we bring the temperature down a bit? It’s   a warm enough day as it is.  Yes, Chair, but I think it is  important that people realise  that Stormont being back up and running  is not a silver bullet and will not  take down the healthcare waiting  list—the five-year waiting list has  existed for many years. We need  transformation and we need our  Government here in the UK, so I think  it’s time for the parties to step up  and back our calls for transformation  of the budget in Northern Ireland,  as well as getting political— Well, that is a new position from the DUP. It is a  position that the SDLP held many  years ago and the DUP opposed—but  leave that aside for a second. These  arguments are the same arguments  that I heard from Sinn Féin reps for  three and a half years when the DUP  and all of us were screaming at them  that they needed to go back into  government, because the implications  for the public were huge. Sinn Féin  said at that time, “Oh, well, you  know, it’s really hard anyway. We won’t  be able to make all these changes.”  That is not politics; that is not  democracy. Of course it is hard—we  all know it is hard. We are all  prepared to help, and I have said that  even if we are in opposition we will  support radical, unpopular changes to  the health service if it brings better  outcomes for people in the longer  term. We are prepared to do these  things.  None of this will happen if we are  still asking civil servants to make  decisions that they have no power or  democratic authority to make. I just  do not think that members of the DUP  can legitimately sit here and, after  three and a half years of criticising  Sinn Féin for not going back into  Stormont, then make the same  arguments that Sinn Féin made at the  time. It does not add up. Carla,  people aren’t believing this.  Final thoughts and a call to action. Now I have to say, what a really interesting  conversation. When the meeting started,   Colum Eastwood said something that really spoke  for me, when he said this. Problem Jim, in terms   of trying to satisfy the DUP concerns I think  around the Protocal, and the Windsor Framework.   Is that, a lot of us ain't sure of what you  want. Then he said this as well. But there comes   a moment, very soon I think. That the British  Government are going to have to say to the DUP,   either you're in or you're out? Because this  doesn't, because what more do you want? And,   I think the Windsor Framework was a victory for  the DUP and you should take it and run with it.  The bit when he said about not knowing  what the DUP actually want spoke to me,   because I still don't really know what they want.  But is he right about the DUP running with the   Windsor Framework? Let me know down below. If you want to watch the full meeting,   I'll have it up loaded later on today, or if  you want to watch it now, I'll leave a link in   the description box below for you. If you enjoyed the video, give it a   like and if you enjoy all things in the House of  Commons and Select Committee meetings? Subscribe!  And I shall leave the video here and I shall  bid you farewell and take care my friends.