Serial killer expert Dr. Scott Bonn | FOX 5 News

Intro all right so my name is Jaya white with the Fox 5 digital team and I'm very excited today I'm expecting this conversation to be more than fascinating because I'm getting the chance to speak with a serial killer expert for the first time he is a producer he's a TV commentator a podcast host a public speaker and he's the author of a few books one being a bestseller called why we love serial killers the Curious appeal of the world's most Savage murderers you've also been a source of expertise on various high-profile True Crime TV shows and documentaries many of which my mother and father have watched like crazy I've always in the one to run out the room or turn it off so that's why I don't know if I'm more excited or freaked out but I'm like strangely like Curious to learn more so Dr Scott Bond thank you so much for joining me today I'm really excited to speak with you and I think our viewers are going to get a kick out of this to say the very least well thank you for inviting and I'm really looking forward to our conversation yes absolutely now the reason that we have you on in the first Atlanta show details place is because you're coming to Atlanta next week you're going to be at the City Winery right on the 6 um remind us of what time it is but also tell us you know break down the show a little bit what are audience members what can they expect you know what cool things are they going to be able to see from your show that they may not get to see um or have the experience the same way that you have in your book absolutely well um yes the uh the show is August 6th there at City Winery in Atlanta and the show starts at uh 7 o'clock so I'm really looking forward to it and in terms of what we're going to be doing well I'm going to take uh True Crime fans there in Atlanta Inside the Minds of some of the most diabolical killers of all time many of whom I've actually interacted with and been involved in those cases and I'm talking about individuals Infamous individuals like David burkowitz who became known as the Son of Sam terrorized New York City back in the 1970s uh Dennis Raider who called himself bind torture kill or BTK and terrorized witch talk Kansas also beginning in the 1970s but for 30 years and then more recently Rex hurman the Long Island serial killer who was apprehended I should say allegedly the Long Island serial killer because he's in prison waiting trial right now um for uh murders uh there uh in um uh on the South Shore of Long Island and so these are are cases that I'm going to delve into and we're going to go inside their minds their darkest deepest thoughts and secrets and Fantasies and desires based upon my knowledge of them and then in the second act of the show is where I do a live interactive Q&A session and I take all the questions from the audience anything they ever wanted to know about serial killers but never had the opportunity to ask and let me tell you I often get hundreds of questions I mean literally more questions than I can possibly even answer um in a 90minut show um so that's really fun I really enjoy that because I never know what people are going to ask and and it's uh you know so interesting it is a multimedia show in that much of it is me um telling stories anecdotes about my life and my interactions but there's multi media video um uh images as well and um and it's exciting it's exciting and fun it's thrilling it's a little bit scary uh but it's also highly entertaining I try to make this uh in you know my my format highly entertaining as well oh I can only imagine you just talked about how you get so many questions and I feel that like doing my research over the past few days I'm like wait a minute like I have 20 30 I'm just continue go I'm like wait a minute we got to condense it and bring it down but one thing that you just mentioned as well that's really cool about is that you've actually been able to interact with some of these serial killers either face to face over the phone can you just I mean tell us a story or tell us like who have you sat down with I know you have sat down with David burkowitz like yes what was that process like like were you freaking out going into it were you calm tell me tell us about that the David burkowitz experience is really pretty amazing because he in the 1970s was this dark angry uh individual who believed that Satan was compelling him to kill and he he also gave himself the name the Son of Sam Sam being Papa Sam was Satan and he believed that he had to provide blood to Satan and Satan's thirst was unquenchable so he had to kill again and again and again but after going to prison for his murders in the in 1977 over the next 10 years when he realized that Satan was not going to magically release him from prison like he thought he changed and he transformed and he describes an actual rebirth a Christian rebirth in 1986 where s where uh uh God entered his uh prison cell touched him and he said he was transformed from the Son of Sam serial killer into the son of of Hope now a minister and Apostle of God and so for the last several decades he truly believes that he's doing God's good work so that afternoon that I spent with him in prison as he described this transformation from the Son of Sam to the son of hope you know some might scoff at this and say you know he's uh just making this up that he is uh doing it for his own amusement or or uh uh to to to to remain relevant and and in the news but I'll tell you it was extremely moving I mean he sat there sobbing tears initially of uh his his shame and guilt for what he had done but then he brightened up and he began to uh shed tears of uh joy and hope as he described his life now he's actually been embraced believe it or not and this makes it so fascinating he has been braced by the Evangelical Christian Community around the world and there is a website dedicated to him that has received hundreds of thousands of hits from around the world people coming to this website looking for Hope and inspiration from him and he corresponds with thousands of people around the world who are once again seeing him as somehow a symbol of rebirth and hope and Redemption so it was fascinating you know and I was torn I was torn between being U moved and inspired but at the same time there was the the uh the the the more uh cynical side of me that says he's just doing it for his own amusement and his own uh uh selfish desires um so I I was I was rather torn you know by that experience but it was highly highly moving and I go into so uh much of this story and and what came out through this experience in my show wow and my Serial killers trying to find God question about that is I also heard that Jeffrey dmer supposedly also had like the sort of rebirth as well and kind of came to the Christian faith while he was in jail before he was killed do you find that this is like somewhat of a pattern amongst certain serial colors that you know once they finally kind of you know gotten it out or gotten caught that they seem to have this you know regression back to you know trying to find God or things of that nature like have you seen that happen a lot or is there a serial killer who's just like no like sucks that I was caught darn if I was you know still out there I'd still be doing what it is that I was doing before yeah it's a great question and uh at least 50 to 60% of all serial killers are complete Stone Cold Psychopaths which means that they are literally biologically incapable of normal human empathy emotional connection and interaction with others other living things and so when it comes to any sort of of remorse or um Contrition or even um uh uh desire to to have any any purpose in life for connection with a higher power they're they're unable to do it and so you have individuals like like Ted Bundy um and I would also say Dennis Raider who bind torture kill who fall into that category and I believe Rex hman Long Island serial killer as well who it it means nothing the the the idea of of of of um uh doing good or or trying to uh connect with the world is is something that just isn't even on their radar they're they're selfish all they care about is their own needs and desires and part and the compulsion to kill is part of that so many of them will fall in that category but then there are those who are different and um and David burkowitz the Son of Sam who has allegedly made this transformation I don't believe that he is a psychopath uh meaning I think he is capable of emotional interaction and he's OT he is able to feel this Contrition and guilt and shame and remorse that he describes and he he is either the greatest actor among all serial killers he's the Daniel D Lewis of serial killer actors and deserves an Academy Award or he at least believes himself what he's saying and so I truly do believe that that that he believes it and so he is looking for this um meaning and purpose in his life and and and a desire to be part of of the world and does have true remorse for the things that he did so is it a pattern no I would not say that it's a pattern given the fact that so many of them are truly Psychopaths but for those who are not like a David burkowitz I do think that Redemption is possible and remorse is possible now you how do you how do you how do you measure how do you uh analyze a spiritual rebirth a spiritual transformation you know there are no tools really to do that you almost have to feel it you have to experience you have to be in the presence of it and I would say that in the presence of David burkowitz I truly felt like there was something there it was more than an act it was more than uh his selfish desires at at uh on display I truly felt that there was something spiritual in the room if if you will so and again and I always like to say this I have a PhD but it's not in spiritual rebirth you know so I am who who am I to say that that that um a higher power God what Alo whatever you want to call it um cannot enter someone's life and change them you know that's beyond my ability to say that uh so I will tell you that I do believe that there are individuals who experience this and I do believe that it is possible although to answer your question specifically I would not say it's a consistent pattern because so many of them are um Psychopaths and just incapable of real human emotion wow it's Psychopaths and sociopaths crazy to think that they can even be incapable you know what I mean so for example you mentioned that it's like a biological thing almost so is this something that you know is this like something like a cell in their brain or something or can this be found in children like how can we kind of piece together um you know a psychopath when you know they're just walking around us how does that kind of work can we spot it in kids can we spot it in our neighbor like how do we go about making sure that you know we're safe in a way yeah yeah great well great question and you know keeping it on on um serial killers specifically about 80% of them fall into a category of either psychopath or sociopath and they then about the remaining 20% might actually be clinically mentally ill um uh um psychotic with delusions and and hallucinations and seeing things that they aren't there clinically mentally ill um and and therefore could respond to treatment the vast majority however the 80% the Psychopaths and the sociopaths these conditions are not considered clinical mental illnesses they're antisocial personality disorders for which there is no real cure so these individuals really can't be rehabilitated per per se they can be managed in a controlled environment but there is a difference between a psychopath and a sociopath these words are often used interchangeably even by experts and law enforcement and in the legal system but I will tell you that there is a meaningful difference between the two and it gets to your very question about the biology of it Psychopaths first of all are much more rare than sociopaths has and they are born that way they are simply born with a brain that is not capable of feeling the normal range of human emotions and they also have virtually no impulse control the frontal lobe of the brain is what controls impulses and keeps us from just acting out on any desire anything that we want to do it's our it's our um it puts the breakes on us and keeps us from you know from just acting out Psychopaths don't have that that's why that if they want something they just do it and they don't care whether they break the law um but again they are they're they're hardwired at Birth not to be able to have emotional connection they're more dangerous because they simply can't feel it they're also more dangerous because they're very difficult to identify when you are encountered when encountering one they will seem simply unemotional they won't show have any ra rage they won't have anger they won't seem particularly aggressive they may even seem Charming because they have the ability to fake emotions and and fake empathy even though they can't really feel it so it's the psychopath that is truly the most dangerous because they're almost invisible these are the invisible characters in plain sight like the Ted Bundy like the Jeffrey uh Jeffrey ders now sociopaths are more common they too will kill and many serial killers are sociopaths but sociopaths are not born they're made they are environmentally conditioned into their predatory behavior hence the term sociopath socialized into this Behavior sociopath these individuals are born with a normal brain they can experience emotion and empathy but what happens to them is they generally speaking suffer tremendous trauma abuse neglect torture and torment throughout their early years into adulthood that they become conditioned into predatory behavior themselves in order to survive and these individuals will seem volatile they often will have mood swings bouts of rage and they will therefore be much easier to detect than a psychopath because they have these emotional reactions and responses so that's a good thing you know for fortunately if there's any good news in all of this it's it's that the psychopaths are more rare they're harder to to to detect they are the more Dangerous Ones the sociopaths will be much more easy for you to detect and and an a classic example of a sociopathic serial killer is one that you're audience may be familiar with it and that is eileene waros a female serial killer she was portrayed in the movie Monster by chariss Theon for which she actually won an Academy Award this was a female serial killer who was abused by men throughout her her youth traumatized I mean really violated and abused she became conditioned into predatory behavior herself and as a prostitute later in life she killed seven men seven of her clients in in one year and it was out of Revenge and it was out of anger and retribution for what she believed men had had done to her throughout her her life but she was volatile she was angry she was if you saw her you would know that this is a disturbed individual so once again sociopaths they act in many ways like Psychopaths but they have um characteristics that makes them a little bit more easy to um detect wow so How to spot a psychopath with the um Psychopaths that kind of freaks me out so there's just no way for us to be able to like spot the like the Ted Bundy walking around like that's just how well they blend into society well I mean let's face it that's why he was unfortunately so effective he killed 36 women how did he do it because he did blend so easily into society um but that doesn't mean that there aren't some Hells like you know in card playing you know a poker player will have a tell where if they have a great hand they scratch their eyebrow or something like that well Psychopaths and and and Psychopathic serial killers will often have a tell and and by that is they although they know how to mimic emotion it may not flow smoothly so for example if there's a if something happens that one might think is amusing or something like that they may not react to it immediately there may be a delay and then they'll react to it a little bit um in a delayed fashion or something might happen that would seem very sad and for which you would think that someone would would would you know uh show a real sign of of um sadness and and they may not do that so effectively so their ability to mimic emotion is sometimes um a tell in and of itself um because they they often will just seem blank there just there's just nothing there you know so if you encounter an individual who just seems unusually cold unusually indiffer to stimuli an emotion that can be a red flag it can be a red flag in in and of itself particularly in children you asked about how you might identify this in Children Well if you have a child who for example sees a a bird um uh uh eaten by a by a cat you know typically a child would cry or would become UPS ET or something like that if the child just sits there emotionless that's that's not a good sign you know and and certainly if they show signs of sadism where they enjoy tormenting other children um or animals that sort of thing that's a you know that's a tremendous sign sign of of uh or potentially a red flag of of there could be something wrong as well um and and particularly around adolescence you know many of the serial killers often will be begin to experience and move over to the dark side around adolescence and um and that's often where almost like some sort of demonic seed seed is planted and I'm going to give you a a specific example Dennis Raider the bind torture kill kill Strangler complet psychopath total total psychopath um and narcissist and and sadist now he had a seemed to have a normal childhood and he was raised by a by a good family in witch talk Kansas uh his grandmother had a farm now at the age of 10 he went to his grandmother's farm and raer told me the story and he witnessed his grandmother killing a chicken she was going to cook it for dinner now you know how do you kill a chicken you typically will chop its head off when the blood went squirting out of this chicken's neck Raider became sexually aroused at the age of 10 but at the age of 10 he didn't even know what was happening he didn't know what that sensation was but he sure knew he liked it he liked the feeling of it so that image was burned into his memory and by the age of adolescence right around 1213 he would fantasize about it and he would masturbate to that fantasy and soon it wasn't enough and he had to include images of women and fetishism and bondage and leather and chains and um and torture and torment and it escalated and escalated and he would he would again give himself sexual pleasure as he as he looked at these imagery he began to become a um a Peeping Tom in witch talk he would then break into women's homes and steal their underwear and by the age of 21 he began to actually look for victims around which talk he compiled a list a catalog of potential victims and it was was not until the age of 28 where his compulsion to kill reached what I like to call a Tipping Point where he could no longer control it he couldn't just live in fantasy anymore he had to actually do it so all the way from the age of 10 to the age of 28 before he finally acted out and what is most disturbing getting back to your question about identifying a psychopath a psychopathic serial killer again Raider lived a normal life he married his high school sweetheart he started a family he got a good job he went to night school no one knew that he was fantasizing about these things and ultimately became a serial killer I mean later on during his his killing career he was the Boy Scout leader in town he was the president of his Lutheran Church Association I mean absolutely unbelievable that he was able to function in in in open plain sight in a seemingly normal way and then have this incredible Dark Side of killing that no one had any idea including his own family including his own wife had no idea and he did this for 30 years it took them 30 years to capture him yeah I was researching earlier about him in particular and yeah his story just drove Texas case me nuts like I know his daughter came out and was also was speaking about you know how she didn't know either I'm just like good grief like how you said they really do blend in um now this is a case that came up in Texas pretty recent I think one of the fox stations over there covered it and I'm not trying to say that this baby is a psychopath I don't know but it's this 12-year-old little girl um she had visited her grandmother with her 8-year-old cousin and apparently the 12-year-old girl um put a pillow over her eight-year-old cousin and like suffocated her in her sleep um and then like reposition the body and everything and went right back to bed so in stories like that like obviously you know that's a huge red flag I know with you know someone like BTK you said it started off you know with something at the age of 10 but it still took maybe like another you know 20 years or a little bit less before he actually committed a kill so in a case as bizarre you know as a as a 12-year-old and an 8-year-old like what is what is the family even supposed to do with that like I don't even know if you would know but how does I mean the that what you just described clearly is you know is is abnormal um especially her ability to just go back to bed and go to sleep after you know engaging in something like that so I certainly uh this young girl would seem to manifest uh uh characteristics of of antisocial personality disorders and that would be the first thing that you would want to uh look at uh she could well be a psychopath um um and of course we don't know her background we don't know what she experienced in her her own her own life um she could be a sociopath you know depending upon her own um uh bi uh biography you know was she abused herself and so that's something you want to look at but what you describe to me clearly are indications of antisocial behavior and um and could well be uh characteristics of a psychopath and a narcissist um and these it's important to understand that these these conditions once again they're not clinical mental illnesses you know someone someone who suffers from say psychosis and has hallucinations and and a break from reality they might commit a murder and they might be able to use the insanity defense if their attorney can prove that they were not of right mind at the moment that they killed and that that simply didn't know right from wrong because that is by the way the definition of um uh uh you know legal insanity is did you not know that it was wrong to kill at the exact moment that you killed not five minutes before not five minutes later now Psychopaths and sociopaths typically cannot utilize an insanity defense because it simply doesn't apply they know that it's wrong to kill they absolutely know that it's wrong they just don't care no law no rule no moras of society no legal code no religious code will keep them from doing what they want to do which is why they can't use the insanity defense wow and I think too like I feel like a lot Characteristics of serial killers of serial killers are kind of depicted as you know it's the white man who has these like ridiculous sexual desires but like you just said earlier right there was a female serial killer as well and I've heard of you know serial killer to don't necessarily fit that description so can you kind of go into a little bit more detail about how you know ser Killers can't just all be grouped you know in one same old category you know certainly and you know we're we're we're in Atlanta so the Atlanta child murders I mean that's a you know a perfect example um serial killers are not all one siiz fits all you know there's this there you're right there's this myth this fantasy that they're all like the um uh the Buffalo Bill or the Tooth Fairy you know in the in the Silence of the Lamb uh film and the the the you know the Hannibal stories and it's just it's just not true serial killers come in every ethnicity race gender sexual orientation IQ socioeconomic status religion you name it but they do have one common characteristic and only one and that is that for these individuals the killing of complete strangers serves some deep seeded underlying psychological fantasy need that it's like it's like a drum beat that only they can hear and they have this compulsion and this compulsion this fantasy it escalates and escalates inside of them over a period of years until it reaches a point that they can't control it now in the case of David burkowitz that we talked about his was a compulsion that he was serving Satan he truly believed that he was a disciple of Satan and that Satan wanted him to kill on his behalf so that was his fantasy that he was like a soldier for you know for the devil on the other hand Dennis Raider that we've talked about BTK his compulsion although there were sexual aspects to his killings it was not primarily sexual in nature he is what is known as a power and control killer it is about the destruction of human life in fact Raider told me when he killed at the exact moment that the person died he knew in that moment he was God he wasn't playing God in his mind he was God it's the absolute uh epitome of power and control and that's the thing that that D from which he derived his satisfaction as incredible as that might seem um there are other serial killers who what are known as Mission killers and what a mission killer is is an individual who gives themsel a job a responsibility there was a a um a returning uh vet from the uh uh war in Iraq who had believed that he had not been used properly over there he had been trained to be a sniper and he never actually ended up being a sniper he he ended up driving a truck or something to his his frustration and Chagrin he believed that he was misused because he was this highly trained sniper so you know what he did when he came back to the United States in Los Angeles he decided to utilize his skills properly in his mind and rid Los Angeles of homeless men he gave himself a mission I am going to rid Los Angeles of of homeless men utilize my sniper skills and and and would shoot you know homeless people from from various uh Vantage points and windows and so forth so so again there and and I and these are only just a few types there there are others that if to understand a serial killer you have to understand the fantasy that that killing serves for them what is the desire what is the satisfaction that they gain from it and if you can identify that then it's much easier not only to understand them but to profile them to to to detect ultimately apprehend these individuals by understanding their motivations and and desires and that really was not understood not until the 1970s when the FBI formulated their U Behavioral Science unit in quanico Virginia um that they really began to understand serial killers and I was very fortunate very fortunate to be mentored by an individual by the name of Roy Hazelwood who was one of the founding fathers if you will of of uh uh behavioral profiling and he along with John Douglas and Bob wrestler and a few others really pioneered those those Sciences which are depicted by the way in uh the the Netflix TV series mind Hunter they're depicted very very well um I would say they're very accurate and um and uh and I was very fortunate as I said to get to know Roy Hazelwood very well before he passed away unfortunately he passed away a few years ago and um and so I the way that I approach uh profiling is very much uh what I learned from from Roy Hazelwood and I was actually some years ago after the uh the bodies the first four bodies were discovered on Long Island um on Gilgo Beach uh which became the the the Long Island uh serial killer case I uh I was approached by the New York Times newspaper to put together a psychological and behavioral profile of this unknown killer and utilizing the uh the skills and training that I had um uh from my education as well as uh my mentoring with Roy Hazelwood I put together a profile that ended up being really 100% accurate of of um uh Rex hman I predicted that he would be a middle-aged white man he would live um openly in plain sight with a father of um a couple of adult children he'd be highly educated a professional articulate persuasive but also sadis IC I predicted he'd be a hunter which he had more than a 100 guns and he he was a a big game hunter um and I also predicted that he would live in the right in the vicinity of where the four bodies were discovered on Gilgo Beach because I believed that for him that was almost like a sacred burial ground that it was almost like a like um um uh uh a temple for him in a way where he where he would um uh bury these bodies and I believe that he would go back there to emotion psychologically fantasize and relive those experiences and it turned out he could literally Rex hman could see the burial ground from his backyard I mean that's how close he he lived to it um so my my profile was right on the money and and I was um I was gratified when about a year ago my phone blew up um I couldn't believe it I was getting these journalists from all over the world saying have you heard Rex hum's been arrested and charged with these murders and your your profile was 100% accurate and I was obviously I was gratified but mostly I was happy that someone had finally been taken into custody because this went all the way back to 2010 when the bodies were were first discovered um so he is also awaiting trial right now as you can see like my brow is furled my face is blank my head is like spinning now the question that I have Why do serial killers go for strangers why do you think these serial killers don't kill their own family at all why do they always go for strangers well it's that's a great question they in in in their in their incredibly pathological minds they actually have principles and they like almost like a code that they they live by and they would just see that as wrong because they live very compartmentalized lives and by compartmentalized I mean that when Dennis Raider was in family mode in his mind he was the perfect father the perfect husband the the the the the the perfect provider he was the man about town respected in the community as I told you uh president of the Lutheran Church Association Boy Scout leader but then in his mind he could almost flip a switch and then torture kill engage in postmortem sexual activity with victims and yet suffer no emotional problem or or trauma as a result he he saw no he he he he saw no hypocrisy or irony that he was able to do these two things simultaneously that they would coexist bind torture kill religious man and father he doesn't see the contradiction because in his mind it's two separate things it's two complete completely separate things that when he is in one world the other world doesn't even exist now that's not to say that he has what is often called a split personality disorder you know a split personality you become one person and then you're not even aware that there's any other identities he knew that simultaneously he was both BTK the Killer and Dennis Raider the father and familyman he knew it it's just through this psychological technique of compartmentalization he was able to FL flip a switch so that it had no adverse emotional effect on him incredible right that's beyond crazy that's that takes it to a whole other Who is your audience level now I heard that 80% or around that of your audience is mostly women as a woman myself I understand um but I'm curious to know about this percentage of men who do show up who are in your inbox who are asking you questions what are their questions are they similar to the questions that women ask or are they looking at things from a totally different perspective I was it's such a good question and um I you know I I get I get profound questions deeply um uh you know academic or clinical questions but I also get some funny questions in my show because I will occasionally get the question from a man you know once again 10 or 20% of the of the audience is male 80 90% and his female and I will occasionally get the question from a guy so I'm here with my girlfriend should I worry about her she brought and um the I would say that the male True Crime fan is more interested in the I would almost call it the academic of it and the procedurals of it um the more scientific side um and and I and I'm speaking in gener generalities here because there are women who are interested in that too but I would say that with for the women it's more the empathetic connection they're identifying emotionally with the the victims who more often than not are women and so therefore the you know the old adage therefore but for the for the grace of God go I they in other words they can put themselves in the in the in the shoes or the or the role of the victim but then they also also want to identify understand comprehend and rid themselves of the acts of the perpetrator and they're looking for tools to protect themselves and how to identify the next Ted Bundy no one wants to become the victim of the next head Bundy but no one wants to become the girlfriend or the wife of the next Ted Bundy either you know so I I very much find that women are there to um uh because they because of the the empathy Factor putting themselves in that situation wanting to understand it and um and I think True Crime TV shows podcasts and for that matter my show provides a service because I seek to provide this information to help people to identify to to to locate to to um uh prepare themselves should they ever and encounter an individual like this so I think with women it's more it's more the empathy you know and what I find and it's very fascinating that my shows often become almost like a Sisterhood over the course of of 90 minutes and once we open it up for for questions it becomes almost like um uh a communal experience and even even though there's so much disturbing information being provided there's also the the companionship and with sometimes with with great fear and Trauma comes also some ironic humor or dark humor and that lets out you know a little Escape valve even horror movies oftentimes have a little you know humor interjected because you can't hold that tension you know for for two hours well it's the same thing in my show and so what I find by the end of the show it's almost like it's become a um you know a communal experience in a Sisterhood where where they everyone is in it together and ultimately they feel much better about this whole thing because I do remind them that serial killers are extremely rare they're extremely rare and in fact I make the analogy that a serial killer like a Jeffrey dmer has three things in common with another Predator in nature that we are attracted to and drawn to and that's a great white shark what does Jeffrey dmer siral killer have in common with a great white white shark they are both rare exotic and deadly and in the case of Jeffrey dmer also he ate people that's four things that he had in common with with a great white shark because he he was a cannibal and isn't it interesting getting back to our society and culture once again that we actually have a celebration of sharks on the Discovery Channel there's a shark week on the Discovery Channel every year and there is a serial killer week on the Oxygen Channel every year so again there's this almost Fascination and I don't mean celebration in like a happy sense but but but but but we're drawn to these predators that are larger than life and we want to understand them you know so isn't it isn't it fascinating that you've got great white sharks you've got serial killers they both have their own week on network television you know and they're both very much iconic in our popular culture I mean the great white shark is is a is an iconic symbol you know in our in our society um so is Ted Bundy you know Ted Bundy is and and Jeffrey dmer and of course the danger and I always warn about the danger about really celebrating this or glorifying it in anyway is that everyone pretty much knows the name Ted Bundy but he had 36 w 36 female victims and I always ask my audience can you name one of his 36 victims and I've done this show in dozens of cities and I have yet to have anyone be able to name one of his victims so that's the danger to the extent that we glorify these individuals and I seek not to glorify I seek to understand to make sense of it to help reduce fear and to arm people with information to protect themselves but I the last thing that I want to do is glorify these individuals in any way and that definitely correlates to a question that I was going to ask a little bit later because you know some of these serial killers they wanted to be notorious they wanted to be well known How does your work feel the Son of Sam or BTK especially and so that was going to be a question that I had for you you know how does it feel that your work not like you say you don't want to glorify it but also Al I feel like there's kind of been not with your work in particular but I mean even when they came out with the Netflix show dmer when that first came out I remember there being some conversations about whether or not that was kind of glorifying the topic so how do you in particular manage to kind of navigate around it so like you said do more educational purposes so that women can be aware and Men you never know what they'll look like um instead of glorifying you know like you said you know what's going on and how to also honor the victims and their families as well yeah well you you you really nailed it there with your last uh statement and that is we need to remember the victims you know and and victim victims come in in many different forms I mean of course there are the the the actual victims who are killed um but then there are the the family members and the and the friends the loved ones and the community because this when when a serial killer is in witchar or New York or wherever it it completely terrifies and disrupts the community so uh victims come in many different forms and Also let's not forget the families of these individuals themselves because and Carrie R you mentioned Carrie rosson btk's daughter who wrote that you know the best-selling book serial Killer's daughter imagine being in your 30s and and thinking that your father Dennis Raider was this you know loving uh uh good father who took you to Girl Scouts and and you know was there when you were in the High School uh play or you know whatever and you to find out that he was was one of the most diabol diabolical killers of the 20th century imagine the trauma of finding that out and because these individuals are so good at camouflaging themselves compartmentalizing their lives like I like I said that BTK and Bundy and others would do live two very separate lives a that these people just didn't know they just absolutely did not know so um oftentimes we don't think of the families of The Killers themselves as victims but I think it's very important to remember that they that they that they are um so that's one answer to your question is we have to have a victim Focus as opposed to the perpetrator Focus um and to not in any way glorify or sensationalize I mean I've seen things that I just think are absolutely immoral um if not illegal uh such as Jeffrey dmer and Ted Bundy action figures um trading cards board games I mentioned before and many people know Jeffrey dmer was a a cannibal believe it or not I'm not making this up as disgusting as this is there are Jeffrey dmer cookbooks there are there are literally Jeffrey dmer recipe and cookbooks people who are exploiting this and seeking to make money on all this and that to me is just incredibly immoral um and uh it's very important that as we talk about these things to remember that they're real right they're not just fantasy stories we're not talking about Hannibal Lecter that's a fantasy story these are real individ individuals who destroyed many lives it's very important to to do that so I I the the the more General answer to your question question is we have to always uh um uh ground this in reality and in the tragedy and the and the horror and the trauma of it all because there's a tendency and and the dmer TV series on Netflix was was criticized for this and also the Ted Bundy um movie that was on Netflix a few years ago was criticized for almost romanticizing the story in a way um and the last thing that we want to do is in any way make these individuals uh romantic characters or even tragic characters in in any way so the presentation of it is important as well uh we want to present it in the tone of what it is which is these are diabolical individuals who who destroy lives so the tone I think the overall tone is is important as well absolutely now to go a little bit lighter I don't know how much light we can get with this topic but I'm curious to know what What made you decide to study criminology brought you into this world like what made you decide to study criminology I know at one point you were in like advertising and media like how did you take the jump back into this field of study obviously it gets very dark you know so how do you keep yourself positive and uplifted while still pursuing your passions in this yeah well uh great question and I I'm frequently asked this when when people as you have done you know look at my my uh my biography um it because I I did I started for the the first 20 years or so of my my career I worked in the media Communications and advertising world and it was then that I made the switch and went into the academic world um and you know studying all of this and now I've kind of come full circle because I'm back in the entertainment world again with my you know with my show but the root of it all as a kid I was always interested in the good and the bad in in the world Behavior why do people do good altruistic things and then why do some people do very bad and terrible harmful evil things and at the same time I I noticed even as a kid how we are often drawn to the monsters in movies that somehow seem tragic like the like King Kong you know the Misunderstood uh you know gorilla the Frankenstein monster misunderstood um Dr Jackal and Mr Hyde uh you so so many and oh Dracula even Dracula is sort of a tragic romantic character if you look at the you know the Bram Stoker uh book so there's this there is this tension between horror and affection good and bad that's always fascinated me so initially when I went off to college my my parents pushed me and they said um stick with the good St the good side uh study study human behavior the good stuff and and so I got into advertising you know I was and so I was fascinated by why do people buy Coca-Cola versus Pepsi Cola why do people buy Crest versus you know Colgate and I you know I spent 20 years doing that but then what happened was uh toward uh um uh in the in the 90s I was working for NBC television network and part of my job was was promoting the shows promoting the news things like that and what I noticed is that certain crime stories whether it be the Menendez brothers whether it be the Johnny Versace murder back in the 90s whether it be the OJ Simpson murder trial they become these larger than life stories that seem to just take over and the individuals involved almost become these these celebrities or or or celebrity monsters I'll even call them you know what I mean that that that they themselves are larger than their own story you know what you know what I mean and um and I found that very fascinating after 911 when the world really changed dramatically you know for for most of us in the United States I had this profound desire to now study the dark side you know so I went back to school I initially got a a master's degree in criminal justice studying the law and and um uh and and apprehension uh but I then I got a PhD in criminology studying Behavior motivations and all of that and I really had this desire to understand why Ted Bundy would do what he did or why Osama Bin Laden would do what he did their motivations and uh so I've spent the rest of my career really focusing on more of the of the dark side and but what I also noticed and here's where comes full circle again is this fascination with certain individuals and with certain stories that become Larger than Life why did why do they transcend the news why why why did why did they become part of our popular culture and uh so that's how I brought it full circle when I when I realized even in the classroom that anytime I would mention Ted Bundy it's almost like I took a an electric shock to my students and they would just you know light up when I would talk about certain individuals I wanted to understand that you know I wanted to understand that so much of my own Pursuit now my own interest and this show that I'm bringing to Atlanta is about why these individuals do what they do these diabolical characters but then why so often they become part of our popular culture and we um seek to understand them and Elevate them into this almost this this celebrity monster cult status in a way I think it's fascinating I think both are fascinating I think I think understanding their dark motivations is fascinating and I think also understanding how we're almost drawn to them like moths to a flame I think that's very fascinating as well yes I mean fascinating isn't even enough to describe it now I'm curious about His family your own family if I'm not mistaken you have a wife and a son how are they are they also like super into True Crime with you or they're like Dad or honey turn it off like tell me a little bit about that how do they feel about you know knowing that you sat down with serial killers and things of that nature are they just as fascinated or are they like no like that's not for me great question and um uh I this is my my second marriage um I was not studying serial killers uh when I was married the the first time um but it it does apply now but my wife I should I should say she's from another culture she's actually from China we got married in 2017 um and um she moved to the United States actually in 2019 and she doesn't know what to make of this because you don't have crime stories like this in in China I mean not to say that there aren't serial killers but just just they're not discussed these things are not discussed openly so this is very strange territory for for her and she and she actually has come to a couple of my shows and when people you know get very animated over these the these topics it is a very difficult thing for her to to comprehend but she just sort of goes with the flow you know she goes with the flow now my my son on the other hand is rather fascinated by it he's a he's about to go off to uh college and and um he actually wants to become a naval officer and he is a little fascinated by the you know these sorts of things so he enjoys it he can't quite understand why his dad um you know has has uh uh people following him on social media and and fans and you know things like that he doesn't quite get that um but uh but but but I think he uh uh can get into the topic a little bit more than than my my wife my wife just says okay that's that's what my husband does that's so interesting I didn't even Most disturbing serial killer think about like the difference in culture and just from the West like that's a whole new perspective to take in so I love that you mentioned that now my next question for you this is just something that I thought was interesting and I just wanted to pick your brain about personally so if you could speak to any one of them that you haven't gotten a chance to speak with already in your lifetime hundreds of years ago whatever is there a certain serial killer that you would bring back just for a moment to sit down face to face break some bread over and just like pick their minds a little bit uh it's a great it's a great question and I I'm often asked A variation of this question like which one do I find the most disturbing or which one do I find the most incomprehensible and I would have to say that the case that I that I find probably the most disturbing is uh there there was a serial killer he's now dead he died in prison a few years ago his name was Richard Ramirez and he called himself or actually he he didn't call himself the media called him the nightstalker and he terrorized Los Angeles back in the in the 1980s and the thing that is so unusual about him is that most of the serial killers that we are most familiar with the Ted Bundy the btks the John Wayne gasy the Jeffrey dmer they were highly meticulous planners that they would go to Great extents to cover up their murders to get to uh dispose of the bodies to not leave any evidence behind very meticulous planners the Long Island serial killer the epitome of that of a of a meticulous planner um he was an arit by the way Long Island serial killer as I predicted he would be a meticulous planner he's an architect he actually had blueprints for murder he created blueprints for murder just like you'd have a blueprint for building uh you know an office building or or a house so many many serial killers and the ones that I would say we're most familiar with are these highly organized now Richard Ramirez almost incomprehensibly would go into and here's why he's called the nightstalker he would go into a neighborhood that he didn't even know in Los Angeles at night and seemingly at random find a house with an open window and he would climb in that window prepared to kill whatever he found inside anything or anyone living that he found inside he would kill and he would just improvise and he would do horrible things if he happened to find a man and a woman inside that house he sorry about that you're okay my my dog is is entering into the conversation what what Ramirez would do is he he would if he found a man and a woman in the house he might tie the man up and then make this man watch as Ramirez would do horrible things to his wife rape and torture her make him be a witness then kill the wife and K and kill the man if he found two women inside he might rape both of them and then kill them so whatever he found he would just improvise on at a on the scene and do whatever would give him an extra thrill and satisfaction he in fact falls into a category of a serial killer known as a thrill killer because it wasn't the killing that was not even enough he had to up the ante he had to find find a way to make this even more exciting for him how to make it more exciting well don't plan it don't have a specific Target in mind enter a house and who knows what's in there there might be three dogs there there might be uh five people um they might be armed he didn't know he didn't care because it escalated the thrill for him that is just so abnormal among even serial killers that I find it just so incredi fascinating um and uh because normally normally there's the fetishism of a specific Target or a particular type of Target and there's a a desire to um uh almost develop a bond with this particular individual the BTK would spend time with his victims he would he would literally as hence his name bind torture kill tie them up he might spend time with them lay down torture them um get involved with these individuals with ramirz it was much more just the thrill of whatever he would he would find should should we stop for a second I want to get this dog barking yeah should we stop for a second oh I don't even hear him anymore oh you don't even hear him oh oh okay no you're fine it sounds fine it only interrupted when you first said something I don't hear him anymore but you're good I only have one more question for you and then we're going to wrap up okay so the last question I know some of our viewers might be freaked out I am a little bit but like I said if you can just I know you already told us it is a rarity right to really encounter a serial killer so can you just remind us of of that one more time and just put us at ease for a second and then remind us um once again about your show date your time and once again just encourage people to come on out because I think I might come I'm a little nervous about it but I want to come well in fact I'd be more than happy to uh uh uh provide you with a couple of tickets if you'd like to come oh that's so kind yes I would love that yeah email me give give me you know give me um you know the information and I'll pass it on to um uh to the City Winery and we'll make sure we got a couple tickets for you okay I appreciate that thank you so much yeah yeah so um I'm sorry what the question again was um remind us you know why it's rare we're okay okay okay okay all right we'll just about the time and stuff sure sure um you know with all with all of the discussion of the um uh the horrible nature of the things that these individuals do the trauma the shock um the the uh diabolical nature of it it's very important to remember that fortunately these individuals are very rare about 1% of all homicides in the United States are as a result of serial killers there's about 20,000 homicides in the United States now every year uh which it's a lot of homicides but 1% of them is as a result of serial killers that's 200 so despite all of the publicity the hype the notoriety the sensationalized uh uh uh coverage of serial killers it's very clear that they're not what's driving the homicide you know problem in the United States in fact I want to give some good news and the good news is that your likelihood of becoming the victim of a serial killer are almost exactly the same as being the victim of a great white shark and that is more than 100 million to one more than 100 million to one so those are some pretty good odds you know you should feel pretty safe with that and if you really want to feel good consider this you are twice as likely to be crushed by a soft drink vending machine falling on top of you and killing you than you are to be attacked by a serial killer so that should hopefully allow everyone to sleep well tonight yeah I can Pat my forehead now I feel a little bit better exactly they do they do terrible things but they're very rare good I'm glad I'm glad to hear it but thank you so much Dr Bon to our audience please make sure you guys check him out next week it's August 6 7 pm at the City Winery here in Atlanta I'm super excited to be going myself I'm creeped out but I still I want more I want to discover more and sir I literally I just check the time I did not realize how much time we just spent on this interview that's how fascinating this topic is so once again thank you so much I'm sure our viewers will love this um like I have so once again thank you for joining us and good luck next week thank you so much and I really look forward to seeing everyone in August 6th at City I bet all right bye bye