Ex-Scientologist on Grant Cardone's Cult Investments & Danny Masterson | Aaron Smith-Levin • 231

Aaron Smith Levin becoming Scientologist (Story), What Working for Scientology is like I don't know if you've seen my other chats but it's hard to talk about this part of the story without getting emotional how it went down for me was my mom was the first one to sort of like leave Scientology but she didn't want to get kicked out of Scientology she just wanted to sort of fix what was wrong with it and she eventually got officially kicked out for just running her mouth negatively about David mavage to people she should not have been doing that to right now in Scientology when someone gets kicked out you have to completely several ties with them right so that's called disconnection I know I said my mom and I don't have a great relationship right now but we were very very close so so realize at this point it's me and my wife my wife's parents have been in Scientology forever my wife's two sisters and brother are in Scientology their spouses are in Scientology all their kids are in Scientology my little brother's in Scientology Scientology is everywhere I work for a Scientologist she works for a Scientologist all that kind of stuff so Scientology tells me that me and my wife and my kids have to disconnect from my mom completely or we're going to get kicked out hey guys if you're not subscribed please hit that subscribe Button as well as that like button on the video they are both a huge huge help if you're not following me on Instagram or on my links are in the description below so please go follow me over there thank you hey Aon what's going on my man how you doing I'm good I'm good thank you so much for being here my pleasure it's it's actually a long time coming because not only do we have friends in common who shows of you you've been on Danny Jones Matt Cox and then you also got on Lex Friedman who's not a friend of mine but he's got a enormous show really does a great job but you are also an extremely requested guest on this show I've done two podcasts on Scientology with Mark bunker and Tony Ortega and every time people are like you got to get a a Ron in like I know I think I think it's time but if you don't mind today there there's plenty of people listening who have not had a chance to hear you on other podcast haven't seen your channel grown up in Scientology which link will be in description below so for those who are unfamiliar with your background obviously you were kind of Born Into Scientology but would you mind just telling the story from the beginning sure so I was about 4 years old when my mom got introduced to Scientology at a young age so my mom had us when she was like 20 years old so she was about 24 I was four when she got introduced to Scientology by a friend of hers who was in a similar situation young uh single mom in uh in the Philadelphia area and so some of my earliest memories are just puttering around as a young kid in the in the Philly org I mean for the viewers who may not know that the churches of Scientology are called orgs right and and there aren't that many of them there's only about 75 in the US maybe 150 in the world and so the one in Philly is uh downtown 13th in race and some of my uh earliest memories are just putting around in the org in the nursery with kids of Staff members who uh um were just stuck in a nursery while the the parents did their Scientology stuff Scientology Nursery yeah well doing anything special there it's it's just a room where the kids are locked you chain to the wall too there's yeah well we literally had to break out of there with a broomstick one time bust a hole through the door and un open it for stick stick our little arms through and open it cuz they locked us in there and someone had to go to the bathroom oh my God we were just looking for a reason to break that door yeah no doubt kids will do as kids do so I lived a relatively normal life until you know like regard aside from the Scientology stuff a lot of the stories you'll hear from uh kids who grew up in Scientology like they were maybe born into the sea organization or something like that they never went to school and things like that I lived a pretty normal life until about 12 years old went to public school um and my mom was on staff for a a large number of my childhood years a staff member in the Philly orc uh and I was just a a kid whose mom was on staff what does that mean to say you're like on staff anyway so it means that working for Scientology is basically your day job uh in some cases it's your nights and weekend job but but you live in the real world like you don't um there's there's sort of three echelon FS of involvement in Scientology there's public there's staff and there's seor public are the people who pay money to do Scientology courses right or to get Scientology auditing staff members work for Scientology but their contracts are like two and a half years or five years it's either a two and a half year contract or a five-year contract once that contract is done you fulfilled your obligation all fair you know you don't owe them anything the SE org is where you sign the billion year contract and you want forever yeah convenient you can't satisfy that contract if you ever leave the seaorg you owe them money huh no matter how long you were in and they'll they'll find you well if you want to keep they don't have to find you if you want to keep being a Scientologist you've got to pay that money you don't get to do any more Scientology so they'll banish you oh yeah I mean the the debt is not legally collectible it's called a freeloader debt but it's a Scientology debt if you want to do more Scientology you have to pay the debt first period yeah so so so that's I said my mom was a staff member yeah so she was one of these people who are working for Scientology basically as uh as your day job but you still live in the real world You' still got rent or a mortgage you've got car payments you've got to buy your own groceries you've got to survive you've got to support yourself um and so uh yeah so pretty normal childhood went to public school played baseball played football all that kind of stuff um uh do you remember a moment where you realized your mom was like in a religion so to speak I mean obviously you're going there all the time but did you have ever get the concept when you're like 10 like oh [ __ ] this is like her church like this is what she believes in the higher powers of so even as a kid I knew that calling it a church was just sort of a wink wink kind of thing like yeah we call it a church because we because we got to call it a church but we don't we're not like we're not churchy like it was embarrassing to have to call ourselves a church and it was also embarrassing to have to explain that my mom worked at the dianic center or the Church of Scientology or whatever the hell you wanted to call it I I have a very vivid memory of being in third grade all the kids are sitting on the floor for some reason we're going around a circle telling what our parents do for a living I'm like you could never get away with that these days in school like what what you know and I remember thinking please the bell I hope the Bell Rings before it gets to me I do not know what I'm going to say or how I'm going to explain this I remember feeling embarrassed and humiliated at having to explain what it is that my mom did at the a so fascina at like 9 years old you're you have that feeling yeah eight or nine I started school a little early so um and it was embarrassing but it's like but you live in like two separate worlds because it's not like I was embarrassed when I was in the Scientology world it's not like oh I'm so embarrassed to be here no I was just embarrassed to have to explain it or acknowledge it to the outside world that actually continued to be true throughout all of my involvement in Scientology and yet you would stay end up staying committed that's so fascinating oh yeah I've got some crazy anecdotes to illustrate that later we'll get to it I'm sure I'll remember um so then something happened me being a uh so I was born in 80 um remember that Scientology got its tax exemption back in 1993 I say remember like you I you probably already know these dates because you you've I know you've done a lot people I know what you mean yeah yeah so Scientology gets its IRS um tax exemption back in 1993 so that coincides with me being about 12 or 13 okay um when that exemption happened uh when they got the exemption back uh David mavich institut a whole new program for Scientology where he issued an amnesty Becoming Full-Time Scientologist & Moving to Florida, Becoming Scientology Auditor (E-Meter) for anyone who'd ever gotten in bad standing with Scientology if they wanted to come back all they had to do was come back admit they did some stuff and they'd be welcomed back and and and it was a coincided with a recruitment Drive where every org in the world had to hire 20 people to go into full-time training to be Scientology Auditors how approximately how big was Scientology at this time like how many members would you say it had maybe by 1993 and I'm just parking it because the peak was in the late ' 80s at about 100,000 and it's been going steadily down since then so maybe by 93 you're talking about May let's just say maybe 75 to 80,000 okay total ballpark yeah but within reason okay my mom had always there was a period here where she was on staff but then she left staff because there was too many kids to take care of between me and my brother my little brother my step brother my step sister all this kind of stuff oh you had a big fan and she's like I've been trying to figure out how I can join staff again but now I know how I can do it we'll get all the kids to join as [Music] well oh my God so the last year of schooling I ever did was the sixth grade that was it okay cuz now you're schooled by Scientology yes so she took us out of school for seventh grade we did homeschool during the day and early afternoon and then we would go into to the [Music] org and we did that um we did that until we could finish enough courses to qualify to be sent down to Clearwater Florida what they call flag to go to flag for full-time training and um okay so that's how I transitioned from being a normal kid going to school to now really entering the Scientology world for real so are you like out of because you mentioned like you were playing on the baseball team and stuff was that town Affiliated or school affiliated did that sto when you started doing this that kind of thing completely stopped yeah so you're just away from kids you're on an island kind of well I mean in Clearwater Florida there was actually a lot of kids but Scientology related right oh yeah once we did that year of homeschool yeah aside from you know playing roller hockey with the kids in in in in the neighborhood you know but no more um didn't do baseball that year didn't do football that year um I mean still had friends but it was it was like gradually declining did you did I mean how'd that make you feel that like you had to turn your life off like that's that's those are prime ages that's like when you're supposed to start having like the most fun I know I know I remember you'd be surprised I remember actually getting really excited about how because remember the parents now have to convince the kids that what they're about to do is like super exciting super important we're lucky and privileged to be doing it and uh I remember several moments where I really where I really bought in m and actually really got excited at the idea how did that happen like what was one of those times one of those times is when we were in the org in the cour room having to study these damn courses and look up the definitions of the words in all the dictionaries and in a funny way it something just something happened where it dawned on me wait a second every time I look up the definition of one of these words I'm actually getting smarter so this isn't a chore this is actually kind of cool because up until then it was like just a chore oh my God I can't believe we have to do this oh my God and then I was like hold on a second I'm getting some outow yeah and I was like it I don't know I just I very vividly remember this moment and there wasn't even anything special about what I was doing at that time it was just one of the moments where it clicked MH um and I remember when we did finally get word that we had uh had received approval to go down to clearw I was actually in the middle of playing roller hockey and somehow we had just found out you know like street hockey yeah yeah and I remember I was actually super excited to I literally dropped left in the middle of the game like see you I'm out it's exactly what it was like there wasn't anything like oh I'm I I remember I there wasn't even a little bit of oh I really regret that I'm not going to I have no idea when I'm going to see you guys again it was almost like yeah you guys are kind of [ __ ] friends anyway I'm out that's crazy C though cuz something had to you know you you're at least around it since you're four so something psychologically it's like that it's like boiling a frog in water slowly and eventually you're just kind you don't even realize it but you're there and you're like all in on this it's really fascinating it is I mean imagine you're being told that you're going to go into full-time training to be a professional Scientology auditor and we don't even know what auditing means yeah well also Imagine thinking that that's your recruitment pool that's who Scientology is recruiting to be their professional Auditors is 13-year-olds who have no idea what it is tell everyone that's tell everyone everything that's wrong with them that's it you're qualified oh my God and if that was true back then it's even more true now cuz Scientology is much smaller now than than it was back then not to cut you off but for people who aren't familiar with scient olog and her hearing stuff for the first time can you just briefly explain what auditing is it's essentially it's scientology's version of one-on-one counseling uh it's talk it's talk therapy except Scientologist would spit on you if you said the word therapy because they're against any form of mental health therapy Psychiatry yeah you're you're mat mat Matt you're GLI you're GLI you're you don't need do you even know what riddlin is Matt yeah so they're getting 13-year-old you to go do this that's right and um so it's talk therapy but you're like okay so therapy what do you talk about what do you talk about elron hub's got you know all sorts of subjects and forms like elron hubber tells you what you're going to talk about you know your auditor tells you what you're going to talk about you don't go into an auditing session is like so tell me what's bothering you lately that's that's not what auditing session is like but it is one-on-one um private you know locked room it's you know no inter no interference no interruptions like it's you have to be able to focus concentrate and it's just scientology's version of Talk therapy elron hubbert's version of Talk therapy counseling if you will so you're getting trained for this at like 13 yeah whoa yeah your balls haven't even dropped or or in the process yeah in the vicinity um yeah yeah there was something else I was going to say there I just lost it um but at this time it was me it was my twin brother it was my step brother it was my step sister it was my my uh mom's two kids that were also our age so between my mom my stepdad her friend her friend's husband me my brother step brother step sister and her friends two kids Philly got 10 staff members bro they hit the jackpot with you guys that's right they got they got every they got you rolling in deep to Clear Water yeah none of them are there anymore well that's good I'm happy about that I have to tell you about this 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courses where you learn how to a what does that look like when you say like the courses I mean we hear about you know the courses they try to have you fill out to try out for Scientology but like once you're in and you're training to be the auditor like what is that even look like are you going into a classroom setting to do that a cour room a big giant cours room everyone pretty much does their own self-study programs like in in Scientology cour room um everyone can be doing different courses but they're all studying in the same space because they're basically doing self-study there's no teacher so it feels educational oh it feels very educational you're studying so like the f one of the first major courses is called the student hat it's basically just um studying everything El run H ever said about how you're supposed to study in Scientology oh boy and then there's something called the method one co- audit course the method one word clearing co- audit course and that's just um a specialized to even explain it I won't even try to explain it but it's a specialized kind of rigorous intense procedure of looking up the definitions of words that you can remember from this lifetime and earlier in this lifetime that maybe have bogged you down on certain subjects and then there's a course for example called the professional training routines course and that's where you start doing the communication drills that Auditors do and that's where you you you hear about like people sitting across from each other and just staring at each other I know you've probably heard some people describe some Scientology communication drills just sit in chairs and stare at each other um well there Tony was talking about that right yeah so there's different gradients of those communication drills and um uh and and those drills are called TRS or training routines so the course called the prots course is an example of it's on the auditor training lineup but technically doing the prots course isn't teaching you how to audit yeah it's just doing you prerequisites and then there's other courses where you start doing some staff training courses like Scientology has these massive volumes of policies and Technical bulletins and the red bulletins are about how to do auditing and administer courses and the green bulletins or policy letters are about how to administer the organization so have you ever seen pictures of these things I mean I don't think so Fest you you you'll be able to find them they're called the oec volumes or the organization executive course volumes or Scientology policy volumes I'm only mentioning those because there's like a big fat volume for each division of Scientology organizing board and then there's a big fat volume that's just applicable to all staff members but when I say it's like a th it's like a thousand Pages I'm mentioning that because even though I was training to be an auditor that's still one of the courses that I did on the on the training lineup and these courses take months and months and months you know like each one of the courses I just told you takes a long time yeah it's like very very rigorous in a way if you can say that but it's very rigorous and you're studying yeah wait so it looks like this the top left the colorcoded ones oh my God that looks like the Greek Odyssey Jesus yes I'm getting n it I'm getting flashbacks now pull the technical volumes um if you use Scientology technical volumes those are those but that's a much older oh oh there you go the one um one two five over from the left on the top row yeah that's like the Christmas catalog look at it those are the red how many pages are each of those things like 500 uh more than 500 800 to a th pages per and you wanted to do this didn't want to we were basically you said you were so excited to go to clear water and don't get me wrong I did not study all those red volumes but what happens is the auditor training course packs are basically distilled from those volumes there is an auditor training course called the class six course where you study every page of every one of those red volumes but the the auditor training courses below that level they're basically taking sections out of those volumes putting it into a course pack and saying learn this got it so they make it a little more digestible they do and then one of the biggest Returning to Philly & Working at Building, Why Aaron’s Mom Joined courses at that time is actually just learning how to use the e- meter to the standard David mavich decided you were supposed to learn how to use the e- meter that course was not taking less than a year at that time which is insane and for people out there on the eer just a refresher for those who e meter is this tool that is used in Scientology auditing that is it really just measures the um the electric resistance in in in your skin or your body like it's a galvanometer a galvanometer a potentiometer these words kind of mean the same thing I think there you go um the blue one right there is what it looked like when I was doing it um the one next to it is what it looks like now yeah it looks like it looks like a weight scale took mushrooms you know what else it looks like yeah an Easy Bake Oven oh my God I can't unse that oh my God I might refer to that as the Easy Bake Oven from now on so in 1996 David mavage decided nobody had ever learned learn how to properly properly operate that Emer before and he created a a new training program to make sure once and for all people finally learned how to do this thing and that's why the course literally took not less than a year people were not finishing this course in less than a year um so those are some examples of the courses that I was doing in Clear Water at that time and how you said it was like three years of rigorous courses yeah when you got down there so what happens at the end of that now you're like 16 years old 15 when I finished so um so what happened at the very end of that we were all down there to train to be Auditors but miss gavish decided that not only had nobody ever learned how to audit use the Emer correctly before nobody had ever learned how to correctly audit before not even under elron hubber they were all mistaken mavich was going to fix this so he created this whole new training program but he needed core supervisors who knew how to properly administer this training program so like pretty much everyone like half at least half the people who were there at that time that were supposed to be training for Auditors now switched over to becoming course supervisors for this new training program so pretty much the last I would say six months I was there everything we thought we were there to do was thrown in the in the in the trash and we were told you guys are going to be core supervisors and this this new training lineup on how to be a core supervisor for this new program and and then that's that's what me and a lot of other people did at that time and that's how my training finished so I didn't even end up doing the auditor training now in a weird way in Scientology you don't have to be an auditor to train other auditor in fact I know it sounds it sounds ridiculous he says yeah it's actually better if the person doing the auditor train supervising the auditor training is not themselves a trained auditor under what logic does that make sense because here's the logic it doesn't make a lot of sense but here's the logic Elon H says I'm basically the one who's supposed to teach them how to do this not you I'll teach them yeah and they learn it from me by reading these materials your job is to make sure they understand all the words in the materials so if they come to you with a question on what does this mean what does that mean you're not supposed to explain it to them in fact if you do you can get in a lot of trouble you're supposed to help them find what word they don't understand in the materials that's preventing them from understanding it so actually now in practice this does not work no in practice this does not work I can tell you from I can tell you from experience being a course supervisor before I did the auditor training and then later in my Scientology career I did the auditor training yes it helps to be a trained auditor to know I answer people's questions yeah um but uh so that's why my training finished at that time and then me uh pretty much new new new teams to run the course rooms for all the Scientology orgs fired out to all Scientology orgs in the world in like May 1996 and that was called the Golden Age of tech I don't know in your conversations has this come up at all yeah yeah I mean you're talking about in the real world like with what ended up being the tech bubble after that or are you talking about in scient in Scientology that was just called the Golden please do expand well it's just called the Golden Age attack David mavage decided no one had ever learned how to properly apply science ol Tech before but he figured out the answer yeah and um and then uh 14 years later he he real he he did it again oh he said no one's ever done it correctly we're doing it again fresh he's the Michael Jordan of tech yeah I gotta um so that wasn't the answer to your question of like what what how did that how did that training end what did it look like when that ended so that ended I was still 15 years old when I finished that training and went back to Philadelphia my mom stayed oh you went back I went back to Philly did you go to school again no no from then on no school no school and when I say I was working full-time as a 15-year-old I mean 8:00 in the morning to 10:30 at night as a staff member in Philly yes whoa living in South Jersey living in Washington Township so you were living in Township doing that yeah I was living in Su no [ __ ] yeah I'm from right around there yeah I would I because I was so uh uh uh did not was not ever getting enough sleep every night I would miss my bus stop I would end up in like debord oh were taking the bus back and forth oh my God yes by myself as a 15 a 15-year-old kid um from downtown Philly to to South Jersey for for years is that legal no not in any way is that legal so how did they get away with this well because you know once we mve to clearw it's like no one in no one in Pennsylvania knew we were in Florida and no one in Florida knew we weren't like authorities wise like no one who would oversee you know no one in the Department of Education or whatever oh my God knew where we were and no one in Florida knew we were it's not like we were kids it's not like you go and update your driver's license or something that's nuts yeah like the the fact that it's that easy to slip through the cracks of the system and then every day you're getting on a public bus and the bus drivers never like what the [ __ ] is this I I didn't really look 15 I mean I'm wearing like a suit and a tie and you know oh so you were playing it up a little bit that's kind of how it was but on on staff there you're working these 8 to 10:30 type days long days what was there anything like a normal day there or was it just always different like what kinds of things no they're definitely normal day pretty much every day is more or less the same you're just running the cour room that's it yeah so you have new potential members coming through yeah and they're trying to train and you're the one in charge of that that's right at 15 yeah so sometimes you're getting like a 40-year-old to walk in there and you're in charge of them oh yeah you're talking doctors dentists chiropractors but you see you're training them on Scientology I know but you're 15 the [ __ ] do you know yeah I know that's wild that that was the system yeah and so your mom stays in Clear Water and she's on staff down there well no she's still a Philadelphia staff member realiz oh when I said we all went to Clear Water we went clear water just to train to then to train for the jobs that we were going to do back in the Philly orc so okay so she was still the whole time we were in Clearwater we're technically Philly staff members got it so they call us outer org traines because we're from one of the outer orgs M training in Clear Water so she just continued to be outw work train for almost another God I want to say six six years four or five years so you're living alone up in Su we were living with the woman who got her into Scientology oh so she was still around there yeah she's still a Scientologist to this day to the best of my knowledge oh my God hi Cheryl that's tough yeah and she had a son just like 20 days older than me and my my brother and he never went this the staff route he went the normal route went to high school I think I think he went to college he does something or other but um good for him yeah so we were we were doing stuff that was totally but like so like we I'd come home at the end of the day having worked you know 15 hours and you know he's watching look at this bum watching TV what a loser we're out here clearing the planet this dude's just [ __ ] off purpose out ethics piece of [ __ ] you're never going to find zenu you son of a [ __ ] wow that's I I'm trying to like imagine that but again you're you are you're groomed into it in a way oh yeah and and your and fairness like your mom was too like someone came and got her tapped her on the shoulder by the way I I didn't ask this at the beginning did was your mom outside of the difficulties of being a single mom at that time and everything was there like a specific pain Point beside that besides that that made her want to explore this I don't know if she would describe it as a paino we've spoken about this uh we've spoken about this some the way she describes it is she just always felt like she was looking for something that she always felt like she was meant for some something some higher purpose meant to AC you know some something greater and she could never quite put her finger on it or articulate what it would be in that when she was first brought into the Scientology org and you know I guess there was scientology's bridge on the wall and someone pointed to her the state of Clea she was like oh that's me I'm clear and um I think this later translated into you know her convin ing herself or that she was a past life clear which is the thing in Scientology I I'm speaking about it very derogatorily I know my mom would take issue with this um but you know it's sort of um it's sort of a status thing in Scientology to have been a past life member past life member yeah past life your past life oh like they think you were in Scientology then yeah you reincarnated cuz Scientologist fast it's not that old oh well I mean when you die you come back tomorrow like you know scientologists believe that when you drop your body which is what they call dying you drop your body drop your body right I mean tomorrow you're in another body at the hospital picking up a new baby body so Scientology has been around since you know Dianetics is around since 1950 Scientology maybe 1952 so my mom was born in 59 so you know plenty of time to be in Scientology go clear die and um there you go grow up wow that's that's some logic behind that that's right Sizzle alert get ready for the ultimate cookout season with manscaped whether you're flipping burgers or cannonballing into the pool make sure your meat looks neat with the performance package 5.0 Ultra you can do this by firing up your grooming routine and keeping your meat cool with manscaped head to manscape.com and use code Dory at checkout to get 20% off your order and free shipping now I'm not going to lie I used to groom my balls with the electric razor you get at CVS but you know you get the rug burn you're trying to pull around and get into nooks and crannies and evitably you scratch yourself and that's a terrible feeling you're leaning over the toilet to hope it actually makes it in 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summer with manscape uh now this thing about getting you know getting your kids into Scientology early and having them do the auditor training that's like major Scientology clout because oh yeah everyone believes your kids are past life scientologists yeah so you would think why would someone want a 13-year-old to become a professional Scientology Grant Cardone’s REAL Scientology Journey, Reacting to Grant Cardone’s Newest Scientology Statement auditor and interrogate people about their deepest darkest you know secrets and perversions because they already know all about it well yeah and they go well that's just the age of their body that's not the age of them as a being we're all the same age as beings uh it's it's actually derogatory to try to say you're you're only this many years old like that would be you know an insult in Scientology so there's no there's no aspect of maybe Scientology auditing isn't age appropriate the age appropriate is a concept that does not exist in Scientology whoa yeah now your mom also if I'm doing math right she got in in 1984 yeah so she gets in before elron hubard passes away yeah he died in 86 okay and that's when miscavage takes over yeah I think miscavage doesn't actually fully take over for like until 87 or 88 there's there's a because you know I know you heard about the Brokers Pat broker and Annie broker I I know you heard in your in your in your talk with Tony he mentioned that refresh me on that who that was uh these were the two SE members who went off with elron hubard for the last six years that he wasion at the end of his life yes yeah so when elron hubard dies immediately remember he did not select David mavich to take over he didn't so there was a power struggle for a while so I know that wasn't your point mavich might have taken over in like by 88 I'm pretty sure he'd completed his takeover either way though the like that's an existential moment potentially for the religion because you have the founder of it now dropping his body right and so at least here on the earth someone else is going to have to take over and your mom is like two years into it something like that when he dies did that give her any pause about like oh [ __ ] like the guy's gone now or not at all and to the best of my knowledge you won't find a lot of people who say that was like uh there wasn't some kind of an exodus because elron hubber died really yeah I would have thought there would be but the idea but you have to understand scientologists don't believe that Scientology is going to allow you to keep your body alive forever so the fact that elron hubbert's body died not necessarily a contradiction with whatever Scientologist would expect because also they didn't say he died of a stroke they didn't say was loaded up with with with drugs and stuff they said he causatively dropped his body so that he could continue his upper level OT research and the upper level OT research is those upper levels are so powerful convenient that the body actually serves as a hindrance to to to researching in a full OT State like to to a Scientologist that really does believe it actually makes sense yeah and and you know what I I keep it it it's F the [ __ ] is funny or whatever but like you know of all people who are in Scientology it's like any other population of humans if I pick a 100 people off the street some of us are going to be stupid but as you can tell listening to you talk like you're not a dumb guy you're a very very smart guy and there's a lot of people like you in Scientology who just from The psychosis of it for that subject matter Scientology itself it's like they can hold on sometimes for their whole lives and actually think it's real and to the outside person the person that is clear out here if you will pun intended right like we might look at it like how the [ __ ] could you be so stupid but at the same time like you look throughout human history we are all capable of being sucked into some sort of cult likee situation and this is kind of primarily that yeah and it's also uh to be fair totally different when someone's born into one of these things oh yeah you can make a child believe anything yes you're four years old when you start thinking about this like the empathy I have for that is insane and I also want to mention you're girlfriend is here as well and we are going to be doing a podcast tomorrow and Jenna you are David miscavage niece so you were also born into it as well I'm really looking forward to talking with you about that but for people seeing on camera 3 there this is coming tomorrow yeah we were maybe going into a three-way chat but figured it might be better to break it up into I I really I really want to dig in into your story separately I'm glad we did it this way yeah but anyway so yeah you're you're basically like born into it like what the hell else are you that that's your compass yeah but it is wild to think of how many otherwise seemingly intelligent people actually join the ship because they chose to Y like Grant Cardone listen you got to get out there you got to sell the [ __ ] out of that stuff you understand me hey you got to get your money right that's what s going to teach you got to get your money right you're a loser if you're not making at least 400,000 you should be embarrassed to be you're not even a man oh that was the best when he said that oh my god he has such a punchable face my jet burns more than 400 ,000 of fuel a week oh have you ever seen him with Jordan bord in that oh my it's glorious I did a reaction video to that it was one of my favorite things oh my God it's glorious it's like Jordan's obviously like a fraud but he was a great salesman you can't argue that and he's just like you don't know sales at all do you you don't know [ __ ] about anything you're more of a marketing guy you're more of a marketing guy he's like H how did you sell your fish how'd you sell your fish that you already said were was going bad like you want some fish you know the irony is that Grant Cardone is considered basically one of the world's number one sales Trainers for the automotive industry if you talk to anyone who's done car sales in the last 20 years they have had to watch Grant Cardone videos as part of their sales training and they will tell you it worked and I go then why does he not seem to know anything about sales I don't get it why did he fail so hard in that interview with Jordan I don't get it it must just be like the Charisma of him cuz he has massive Charisma I got to give him that right it almost like bleeds off into confidence in enough people that then they make a sale or something and they're like oh [ __ ] that's cuz of gr I mean that's a natural human thing I I could get that but yeah he seemed to get pretty Exposed on that but he was a guy who joined when he was an adult right he was like 30 something he was more than 30 something 40 something yeah uh and and his twin brother Gary oh he joined with him yeah well actually I think Gary might have gotten Grant in but um it's funny because if you look at him if you look at him side by side you would never never think that they're twins but they are identical twins it's just that one of them doesn't do tons of steroids can we pull them up can we pull up Grant Cardone someone sent me a video last week and actually said do you think Grant Cardone is sick does he have cancer I go no that's his brother Gary that's what Grant would look like without the steroid Gary come over here and put this [ __ ] in my [Laughter] ass do we got it oh there it is oh [ __ ] yeah he does look like he's on chemo compared to him well and look those are thumbnails so that's the those are the best photos you're going to get I mean that's that's best well that one looks okay oh the one oh look at my secret my secret twin brother and and if and if you actually just pull up a recent um video thumbnail of just uh Gary all right so G just type in Gary Cardone let's try that take take off the N brother Tampa is that him right yeah yeah you can see yeah yeah he he does look a lot smaller and look at the one right there the grit daily see you can you can see his facial features yeah it looks like his older brother they're identical twins it does crazy so he may have gotten both both scientologists I'm pretty sure Gary got Grant in but you can fact check me on that here's what I can tell you when Grant tells his story of how he got into Scientology he I think he told it on Vlad he told Vlad he does not tell the honest story he also doesn't tell the honest story of how he me met his wife he met his wife shooting a scient a dianic commercial yeah like an internal commercial yeah yeah like like a science a dynetics infomercial like an internal thing we got to get that so I know we got it I I'll bring the ski Mas let's go and uh so they both and not only they both in Scientology but you know Grant is like as high level in Scientology as Tom Cruz really I know that when I say high level it depends on how you define that he don't Grant Cardone is not friends with David mavich the way Tom Cruz is okay but they're both ot8 like they've done the entire bridge that exists that Vlad video that you mentioned we've played some of that before I think we had to do it off camera because Vlad has the has the IP there but like his body language in that like um when Vlad you know cuz vlad's like so calm about any topic he's like yeah so you joined Scientology a while back and you just see Grant lean back in his like on arms crossed in his chair yep yep like licking his licking his little soul patch down there yep yep no listen it was it's been a huge help to and he's so uncomfortable talking about it so I'm like in his head maybe that's just cuz he gets bullied About It by people who aren't side intelligence that's possible but like I'm wondering if in his head there's already like a subconscious like yeah this shit's kind of crazy but it works for me so don't ruin my [ __ ] flow I'm on a roll I'll tell you what triggers the nervousness scientologists who have done the confidential levels the OT levels where you learn about zenu and the volcanoes and the body thetans you are not allowed to publicly acknowledge that that information is true or exists and yet you sort of look like a fool If you deny it because so many people know that it's true that's what triggers the nervousness if it wasn't for this weird confidentiality like you will never hear a Scientologist who's done the OT levels acknowledge that scientologists believe in zenu or body thetans that's so strange they're not allowed here's how Scientology at Lowest vs Highest Levels, Human Trafficking Cult Exposed, What is the Sea Org crazy the ential gets if you have two scientologists they're married they've both done all the OT levels they are not allowed in the privacy of their own home to discuss the material of the OT levels with each other and if they do and it's almost like whoever Rats on the other one first will be given the the the the Lesser penalty oh my God like it's for real so you're not even allowed to talk about it with scientologists you're not allowed to talk about it with family members or friends even people who already know the information so when you have someone like Grant who's so publicly a Scientologist and he's publicly an ot8 and he's sitting down with a guy like Vlad who absolutely starts asking him about zenu right grant shuts the conversation down right there he goes okay okay okay yeah yeah yeah yeah I'm not I'm I'm here about my my family I don't care about all that I don't care about space alens I care about my family I care about me I care about getting my money right and I'm like yeah he's Grant is the master of controlling a conversation that there one thing he's excellent and the point but that's where the nervousness kicks in he's not allowed to even be on a platform where zenu is being mentioned that's very dicey for a guy like Grant with Scientology so they could call him in for like a hardcore audit just for being there well the next time he goes in he's going to have to answer up for that like this guy is getting clicks on a video with your name and your image and your likeness did you see this this is you got you got to watch this what what what is it this is him responding this was like July 2nd recently and what he was doing is he responding to an article they called him scientologists and he was saying how dare you call me a Scientologist this is the video it's it's so cringy I did a reaction video to this okay let's see this real quick let's get a live reaction all over at Miami New Times Alex Deluca and the owners of your company Village Voice Media or something like that Village Media Group want to thank you for the coverage on the listing of our house in Golden Beach for 42 million in Bitcoin absolutely true thank you for that free coverage oh look I've never heard of any of you people but I do want to make you famous I want to make you famous for religious hate religious bias and religious Prejudice and hopefully somebody will hold you guys accountable nope uh if I was Jewish Muslim Protestant Catholic if I was a gay man gay but because you're hacks and you're lazy and you don't know what you're talking about you use my religion to clickbait and that's because you're lazy and you're a hack okay but what it did show was that you have religious hate and Prejudice in your heart oh my God hopefully somebody holds you guys accountable uh you owe an apology to me and my family for headlining with this I am a proud Scientologist I have practiced Scientology for 25 years it's been unbelievable and wonderful for my family for me as a husband a father as a father a husband as a friend as a business owner of over a thousand employees you guys you guys should be ashamed yourself whoa so now hold on is he is this is he listing his Miami property or his Malibu property it says Miami that one that one says it doesn't really say but it does seem like it's Miami isn't it yeah so he's selling his Miami place and he's selling his Malibu place I don't know interesting interesting yeah um that's recent that's July 2nd told all of these uh motivational guys that they should always film themselves while walking or driving I don't know they never heard they never seen a table that they liked it's cuz he's on the Move he's hustling get that grind I'm hustling I never sleep I don't sit yeah so it's like he should be thanking these guys for promoting his listing he's the one who calls himself a Scientologist how can it be bigoted to call him a Scientologist if even if they're click baiting he should they don't say a single negative word about scientology in this article not a single negative I need the next article to be potentially closeted gay man Scientologist just for the video will get back he's not gay he's deeply closeted oh my God but yeah I mean obviously like he's got a brain up there and he join his brother potentially gets him in and he joins he's been in there for 25 years he's bringing his family into it now too it sounds like his kids are in it oh for sure yeah so the thing is Scientology it's not the same thing at the lower levels as it is at the upper levels Scientology at the lower levels is like pure self-help it's actually like it's very much the kind of stuff you'd expect from Grant Cardone or like a Tony Robbins or they or Gary Vee it's all self-help and it's like it's like the most purest kind of self-help which is you can accomplish anything because you are like natively Godlike in your powers and and and you just don't know it yet and Scientology can help you realize that it's it's it's weird because it's it's kind of a double-edged sword where on the one thing you can accomplish anything and but on the other thing everything that ever happens to you is your fault because you can accomplish anything like in some weird spiritual way you're so powerful that anything that happens in your life is attributable to something you've you've um said or done at some point it's always struck me that there's there is a a bastardized element of like manifestation that seems to be at the basis of Scientology and that sounds exactly like what you're describing ring right there so you the what year this thing came out called the secret yep when that thing came out it was so similar to what Scientology teaches that Scientologist would get in trouble for watching it or having anything to do with it yeah threaten at home exactly so what did they call that positive H Scientology calls it positive postulating but there there was some there's some phrase well you called it manifesting that's not exactly the phrase I'm looking for but I think all these things mean the same thing anyway where in Scientology you're eventually supposed to get to a frame of mind um they call it tone 40 in Scientology where tone 40 has a few different definitions in Scientology but it's essentially an idea that the the concept that what you're trying to accomplish might not be attainable doesn't even enter your mind as a possibility if you're even thinking that what you're trying to accomplish might in some way not be possible then you're not at tone 40 so it's almost like getting rid of all negativity all counter thought all counter expectations anything and um I could see getting hooked with that it it's it can be like a bit addicting because it is self-empowering yes and that is the message that Scientology is giving you from the beginning they're not talking about zenu they're not talking about past lives they're not not in the beginning anyway right uh you hang out with you hang out with Scientologist long enough the past lives are going to come up aliens are going to come up a prison planet going to come up but it's of course they're going to come it's going to come up that's not even the confidential stuff like even scientologists that don't know about zenu still know about you know the fifth Invader force and the prison planet and the between lives implant stations run by the alien psychiatrist on The Far Side of the Moon like that is non-confidential information in Scientology but that's not what they're hitting you with no they'd rather you didn't hear about that right away yeah but that but that's how they it's the hook point they suck you in and then you start having success in your life or you're more confident on stuff and we know how we think confidence money in the bank account stuff like that opportunities that are coming up that have been opened the doors have been opened by this that those are very easily not only addictive things but they're things that you will start to make excuses for meaning like oh no I could I'm starting to see some crazy [ __ ] but it's getting me this so therefore it's still it outweigh the good outweighs the bad and then I guess eventually someone gets far and Far Enough up into the OTS that you know some people finally go holy [ __ ] like all right this is crazy I've had enough success I'm going to be able to sustain on my own I need to get the [ __ ] out of here absolutely and because people aren't allowed to talk about those levels with each other as you go up those levels if you start to have doubts you are really made to believe that it's there's something wrong with you that's causing you to have those doubts because it's working great for everyone else but you're not allowed to go talk to those people and ask them if that's actually true it's almost like keep away yeah it's almost like every single person is like oh I'm the only one having these doubts I'm the only one who maybe this is maybe there's something wrong with me I'll just keep going out just do my next level it's like the dark side the prisoners dilemma in a way like where they can't go talk you know a psychological experiment I haven't heard of the prisoners where they can't I think I'm I hope I'm saying the right one am I saying the right one it's like where they can't where they have each of they have each of the the interes in a separate room for like a crime and they're telling them each that they can't talk with each other and that the other person is telling on them or whatever and then they see you out yes yes I think that's if I got that wrong give it's almost like the reverse prisoners dilemma yeah in what that's what I'm saying cuz you guys essentially have to like all walk up to each other like hey just another day around here that's kind of exactly what happens oh my God and there's this other thing where um not we're just kind of going all over the place here this is great when you finish a course or an auditing action you're not allowed to finish it until you write up a su a success story on how great it was and how it changed your life and how you would want other people to have that now if you're like eh I I'm not really feeling it you're like oh you're not we're going to have to go back and see what's wrong with with your last level and that cost you more money hop on the on the labotomy machine my friend the beatings will continue until morale improves but you get to a point where it literally costs you more money to say that that thing didn't give you exactly what you hoped it would so you you're trained to lie to yourself that's crazy just to save just to save money and then you get up and you lie to everyone else to get them to to do it as well Financial incentive on the other end of it there really is there it is yeah that's the wildest part to me like how much how they even from the beginning they're like oh pay money to do this course there's something wrong with you and then they they find a way to keep that it's a gravy train the whole way up it gets bigger and bigger with how much money you got to spend yeah yep and you know there is actually a financial incentive to bring people into Scientology it's well you get a 10 or 15 10 15 to 20% commission people that you bring into Scientology you're they are called your select like if I bring you into Scientology you're my selecte my pyramid scheme except it's only one level deep so it's not a pyramid oh so if I get you in that's [ __ ] and I get a hundred people in I'm getting commissions on every dollar those people give to Scientology but if they get people in I'm not getting an override they're not in my downline I'm going to go I'm going and suing in court on behalf of Scientologist I don't like this there are some people who that is all they do for a living is just collect people bring people into Scientology or they run around and find people who have fallen out with their fsms and that like like if I got you into Scientology but five years later we're not friends anymore when you don't want me to be your FSM you can just go pick another FSM yeah and so there are some people who just go around and they collect up scientologists that's a real they just they just make the commissions they just make the commissions whoa yeah so like Grant Cardone you know when he encourages his employees to get into Scientology or he get he's making money on that he's making money on that absolutely oh my God that's just what he needs more money it's one of the reasons I personally do so many videos about Grant Cardone yeah I don't care honestly on a personal level I don't care that he's a con man I care that he's one of the number one recruiters and financers of this human trafficking cult you call it a human trafficking cult it's a human trafficking cult it absolutely is and why and why do you call it that because they bring in um people from other countries uh with these false promises and other I guess um less advantaged countries whether it's South American or Eastern European or or or poor Russians and they bring them here with these uh these false promises and um and once they get here let's say they join the C organization they're being paid $50 a week to work 120 hours a week so maybe they were promised they were going to come here and they were going to be a highly trained auditor and all this stuff and then they're just put to work in the hotel rooms just cleaning the hotel rooms they're on a billion-year contract they're making $50 a week um they overstay their their religious Vis the religious worker visa that they got to come here if they even got a religious worker visa sometimes they'll just come over on a tourist visa so they end up here illegally so if they leave and stay in the US they're going to be deported and many of them don't want that but but by the time they get to the point where they want to leave they literally can't afford a plane ticket home and and so the the church or you know I call the church sometimes but Scientology ends up having all the leverage and this happens this doesn't only happen with foreigners uh there are some people who because there aren't enough scientologists in the country to staff all the organizations they'll shuttle them around from state to state oh my God and they'll end up convincing someone to like sell all their belongings and go to Albuquerque you know some some you know 20-year-old kid kid you know 20-y old sell all their stuff go to Albuquerque oh you're going to cook some meth yeah they're opening they're opening the new or you'll make $1,000 a week they get there they're making $5 a week oh my God by the time they're like I don't want to do this anymore they're like I'm sorry we can't help you like I I can't even pay rent I don't even I'm not allowed to go get a job because you say I have to work here in the yorg but I don't make any money here in the yorg and I want to go home but I literally can't even buy a bus ticket yeah you know this story repeats over and over and over uh not just in the US but all over the world and also you have you have it as such a strong cult that we hear all these stories that that are true of people who quite literally get in prisoned by Scientology where I mean we've seen the pictures like they literally have these prisons and they're like well they could technically leave but they don't cuz they're so brainwashed by what happened and they're basically put in these torture chambers yeah you know it's funny in in recent years Scientology has eased up on that kind of stuff a bit not because they've seen the error of their ways but because they're like dude these people just leave and end up telling the most horrific stories on like Nightline or to Alex Gibney or on YouTube they're like I I think they started to realize we're we're doing more harm to ourselves by continuing to do this we don't care about the people but we do care about ourselves so like we mentioned the C organization right yeah for um for decades there was a program within the seaorg called the rehabilitation project force or the RPF this was I am not exaggerating the reconditioning and labor camp for seor members go some dangerous words right there if you're a seor member and you're assigned to the RPF okay you are separated from your spouse you are separated from anyone you work with and you are just put with the rpfs you um uh you this program took three sometimes 10 years you do not see your spouse you uh do not have any days off you're now getting paid $12 a week instead of $50 a week you only speak when spoken to you run you have to run everywhere not walk it's 5 hours of hard labor a day and 5 hours of interrogations a day and and this is for like this is this is I'm explaining this program because it's actually an example of one of the things Scientology quietly got rid of in in the last number of years yeah but this had this program had been around since elron hub's day this program was around when I was in the seaorg this program was around when she was in the seaorg how did this stuff this is what I don't understand how did things like this not get prosecuted because technically it's all all protected under the shield of religion they're considered religious volunteers it's considered that they are voluntarily subjecting themselves to like uh I don't I keep wanting to use like I keep wanting to use like civilian terms but I'm not sure what I forget what the religious word would be like we got monks up in the mountains whipping themselves on the back understand you know that kind of stuff they're like no these these people want to do this it's for their spiritual cleansing and Enlightenment you know and this is where they go these people could leave if they wanted to but you how would they leave who would they go to where would they go how would they get there like in many ways I mean we we're speaking we we we both speak from experience on this in many ways people stay because it's just easier than having to figure out how to turn your life upside down and start over from scratch yeah it feels like like I always try to picture this and it's almost like let's say clear water for example in Clear Water there's a lot of scientologists and there's a lot of people who aren't in Scientology and they live right on top of each other oh yeah and yet let's say I have a house here and a house here and this house is a Scientologist who wants to leave Scientology and this house is a normal place the day he decides to leave Scientology and he walks to the other lawn just to like see like okay maybe I can get some help from my neighbor here it's almost like he crosses a literal Rubicon and and it's like you're it's almost like they snatched your soul and Scientology’s View on Christianity, L. Ron Hubbard’s Bizarre Personality now now you're walking out without your soul and you got to hope it finds its way back home to you it's very it's very strange but I I can't I try to put myself in the shoes of that and I have two people here who had to do that but it it seems very very scary it is it is and I don't know if you've heard this analogy of um Scientology in The Matrix I don't think I have so scientologists you know they believe that this is a prison planet you know the best way to keep someone into prison is to make them not realize they're in a prison and to make them maybe a little happy with where they are so they never try to escape M so Scientology believes that everyone on planet Earth was brought here from one of the other planets in the Galactic Federation and was dumped here okay they had their Spirit memories wiped and were dumped here to believe that they were just bodies that evolved here on Earth and uh and then and that even even uh Humanity evolving the world's major religions is part of what we've been programmed to do to keep us from trying to figure out how to get off this planet so the fact that let's just take Christianity that you believe you live a lifetime and then you either go to heaven or hell well if that's what you believe you're not trying to figure out how to get off the planet right it's not it's not relevant to your worldview and elron hubard basically said all the world's major religions are just fake stories that are alien um psychiatrist alien imprisoners have programmed us as a civilization to evolve over time time to keep the population calm and stupid about the real circumstances and that Scientology is what unplugs you from the Matrix and you realize what the real deal is and that only Scientology can give you back all your memories of all your previous lives to erase the Amnesia of all all your past and have you regain your native Godlike abilities so in this analogy you saw the Matrix right oh yeah okay so you got Morpheus elron hubard would be Morpheus or perhaps now that's David miscavage but Neo is Tom Cruz oh come on why do we have to give him the coolest character he's already cool okay but Cipher the but okay so but in this thing remember the guys who get unplugged from The Matrix their life sucks now because reality is [ __ ] you're living in this post-apocalyptic world you're eating slop but you're not a prisoner that's how scientologists see themselves Okay so they see the the they're so virtuous by working all these hours giving up all their money sending their children into the seaorg that's the price of unplugging everyone from the Matrix yeah now you remember in that movie Cipher was the worst of all of them because he already tasted what it was like to be unplugged from The Matrix and he asked to be plugged back in so he screwed everybody that's how scientologists view people who leave Scientology that's why Scientology see people who' who've left Scientology as being worse than people who've never been in my my issue with that though and again like I wasn't in it so like I can't really put my mind there right but it's not like in The Matrix they literally plugged in and they went to a different world like like in in a sense right like just but they didn't and not not not a physical world not a physical world exactly but meaning it was a to that's that's my point it's like a totally different experience whereas in science ology you just show up to a building that's blue with like a [ __ ] sign and they're like hey welcome you don't go into a different world you like you know you're still getting Dominos Pizza order you know that's a really good distinction you're right they've they've convinced scientologists that there's these two completely different worlds while being in the same world yes so what they've convinced themselves is that we've learned the true our true spiritual nature that's how we're unplugged we know who we really are we know we're not a body we know we don't live one lifetime we know about the Galactic Federation we know about the fifth Invader Force which by the way that's this this gets really funny fun and funny so it already is elron hubard and this is in materials most people would not have um uh even who've done ot8 be familiar with because when he first came out with ot8 there was a first version and people got so pissed off with it that they changed it okay but in the first version he basically said the Bible when it talks about the second coming of Christ which I'm I I make mistakes when I start talking about Christianity because I'm no I'm no religious scholar okay so if you guys know anything about this please jump in when Christ comes back it has something to do with Armageddon and uh like basically the the world essentially ends right but the people who are saved basically take over the the but Christ coming back that's actually the that's actually the bad aliens the fifth Invader Force coming back to reinvade Earth but but the but the story's been flipped on its head in the Bible so that all the Christians will welcome the second invasion okay convenient yes very convenient and so in this story elron hubard says that's why speaking as elron hubard he says I fulfill the prophecy of the Antichrist he basically says I am the Antichrist he says that in the first version of ot8 but you have to understand he like the Antichrist so but what does it mean though when someone who doesn't believe in God or Jesus or Christ or the Antichrist what does it mean when he says I'm the Antichrist what he meant was the Bible is just a work of fiction to trick people into welcoming the the second alien invasion I keep calling it the second alien invasion but when the fifth Invader Force comes back okay same [ __ ] to me right just saying and so but this is I'm just the story that I'm telling you other than being absolutely hilarious is an example of how scientologists very much looked down on PE they're not someone who's like all religious people are good they very much look down on religious folks they don't really consider themselves to be religious they don't believe in God they don't believe in a Jesus or a devil or an angel or or a heaven or hell or anything they only call themselves a religion for the tax benefits and I guess there is an argument that could be made and and um that if you're talking because scientologists do sincerely believe that we are all immortal Spiritual Beings with Native Godlike potentials and only Scientology auditing can get you back to that state we can argue whether is that Rel is that religious religious people get offended when you say it's religious because they associate religious with God yes the truth is Scientology does not believe in a God but I you could probably make an argument that if they do truly believe that you're an immortal spiritual being and only Scientology aut can get you back to where he used to be I think religion I I think you're right like it usually has to do with God that's how we think about it but Beyond on a broader level it has to do with meaning and so I can see how this is described as filling the void of meaning yes you know but that's so wow so especially if scientologists believe that their sort of Matrix story is the one true story and all of the other religious stories are [ __ ] and are actually part of the Matrix Scientologist would would scoff out you if you're like oh we're not a religion we're the only religion we're the only the only one real religion no other real one yeah everything else is [ __ ] that's that's like that explains though like CU elron hubard is such a fascinating guy to me obviously he wrote this Pulp Fiction in a way he would write what was it like one penny a word or something like that I've heard that I don't know if it's true was like he had to write things really fast like seemingly as if he was on mushrooms the whole time never did a second draft you hear never did a second draft just crazy [ __ ] on the page wrote tens of thousands of pages I'll give him that but like he sees himself as and this seems to be a pattern across pretty much all cults that have ever existed someone comes along that says no no no I know I I've been told I've been given all the information it's come down from on high I'm the one who has to give it to you you have to listen to it in the format with which I give it to you and then people go seems right you know and then they follow it that is exactly what he did now you would think right since that's the play that there'd be some story for well wait a second where didd you get your special knowledge don't worry about it I swear to God he does not say where he got the special knowledge in fact the the he doesn't even I got Cavern in Edison he doesn't even have like a golden tablet story like the Mormons do the closest he gets to explaining anything about this is he says he was Buddha and uh the the i i risk saying these words incorrectly because I'm not a religious scholar but there is a the state in Buddhism that you're trying to achieve I believe other than Nirvana is like you're called like a Bodi or a Bodi I always get it wrong um El Hub basically says that as Buddha I came to raise mankind up to a level and I thought I had achieved that with Bodhi or Bodi but then after I dropped that body I was embarrassed to discover that state was only Scientology’s Big Promise (Avoid Prison Planet), Aaron’s Mom Scientology Faith Today temporary okay we needed to take it to a whole another level we needed a permanent State I just picture this like in South Park when they had Al Gore be like M pick like that's all run over like not bua M pick so scientology's state of clear is supposed to be the permanent version of whatever Bodi is in uh in Buddhism so but you're like okay but but I don't know if I don't know if the Buddha ever explained where he got his knowledge from because again not a religious scholar I grew up in a cult but um he literally in the body of Scientology never says this is how I came to obtain all this new knowledge and you can't yeah uh in fact he actually says the opposite he says we will not speculate as to how I came to rise above the reactive mind and I'm thinking I think that's what we should be speculating about but um but for all the smart people that get into Scientology and weren't just born into it uh you know they end up it's just a fascinating study in how smart people can can gradually be brought to a point where they believe all these things even if even if I do think a lot of these smart people who join Scientology I think there are things that they question along the way they just convince themselves why those questions don't matter enough right now yes and maybe we'll cross that bridge later but later never comes yes I think it's something you know I've only ever lived in my head but I think to a certain extent it's something we are all capable of as human beings being sucked into into some sort of idea that is attached to something good like we talked about earlier with the incentivization structure that we we we go down the rabbit hole if you will and there's different things that happen every day in society where we see this it's just on a whole another level when it becomes this Center like religion in your life and you're you're a part of a community that not only encourages you not to Talk Amongst each other because that would be very bad right to share each other's feelings or whatever because it's not in their control but also you know you they they literally teach you that you're separate from the earth and from all these other idiots on this Prison Planet cuz they don't know what's really going on in Scientology that is just like again I can't really put myself there but if I were born into it of course I'd believe that I'd be like yeah sure and then at some point you know they just slowly boil the Frog like I was saying and you know you tell me like zenu I might be like you know makes sense which I really hope like when I die if we get to whatever the afterlife is if I find out Scientology was right that's really going to be a bummer I hope that doesn't happen that's not going to happen right I I don't think uh I don't think you have anything to worry about good good it's funny for the for one you know one of the things that well two of the things that signed ology pretty much promises Scientology will give you is the ability to come back next Lifetime with full and Total Recall of your previous uh life and lives recall oh yeah per your Perfect Memory you just retain everything CU because you because basically what would happen is you skip the between lives implant station so your memory doesn't get wiped so did they tell you what to remember from your previous life tell you what to remember Moving to Hollywood & then Joining Sea Org, Meeting Wife & Having Family yeah what do you mean what to remember like did they may that's the wrong way to ask it did they say oh you were a Scientologist in a previous life because you know you're joining as a kid right now so it'll come to you they're not allowed to tell you what you should remember it's just heavily implied but like but remember we talked about the between lives implant station I might not have gone into detail about it but it is the thing like um you know when you have a near-death experience you know like we all uh you see they say you see the light at the end of the tunnel well scientologists believe the light at the end of the tunnel is the implant station don't go towards the light that's where you get your memory wiped by the alien psychiatrist uh imprisoners what is the name of the the people that guard a prison I keep saying imprisoners or captors I don't know what they're right guards prison guards I prison guards alien psychiatrist prison guards that are Manning the implant station so they believe that with enough Scientology when you drop your body this lifetime you'll be able to skip bypass the impant implant station and just pick up a new body so like today you're you tomorrow you're still you but in a new baby body being like how do I use these arms and legs and why do I keep [ __ ] myself but but you'll still remember everything even though they wipe you no you skip the implant station with enough Scientology that's what they believe oh but how do they Define enough they don't they just convince you that with enough Scientology you get yourself in good enough shape spiritually and mentally you can skip the implant station the next time you drop your body that it's like chasing the Magic Dragon come on SO scientologists end up to a point where they're like oh no if I don't either do enough Scientology or if I don't be a good boy or a good girl and I get and I get kicked out of Scientology God forbid I'm going to be doomed to an eternity of Amnesia because I'll never get enough Scientology to be able to skip the implant station I'll just continue to be a prisoner on this planet over and over again for the rest of Eternity that's the promise that Scientology gives you so considering that um there's two big things that they promise that you'll be able to come back next Lifetime with full memory of everything that happen this lifetime and also that you'll get to a point where you can positively and at will and with full perception exteriorize from your body just exteriorized have an out a body experience but causatively not like oh I just was in a car accident and I was looking down upon myself no like you could be sitting here and you just leave your body with full perception so instead of here I'm here but I'm my body's here but I'm here so I'll be looking at you from over here but my body's here like honestly just ex exteriorization fully stably exterior at will and with full perception is something Scientology promise is it will eventually give you no Scientologist has ever accomplished either of these two things I was going to ask you did you have it happen I mean come on not even close you know how many times I tried trying to like pop myself out of my head I'm like I'm like I'm I'm I'm close I can feel it I can feel the vibration God as a young little Scientology staff member one of my biggest ruins if you will is damn it I've never been exterior but there are Scientologist who who will tell you that they've gone exterior and you're like if elron hubber could go exterior then why did he have to infiltrate all those government buildings why couldn't he just pop through the files and and read the papers with his Spirit eyes that's it that's it see there's an explanation there and elron hubard never came back yeah if if if Scientology was true and if elron hubard wanted everyone on planet to get into Scientology all he had to do was come back that's it and it's the one thing every Scientologist is told they will be able to do that's all he had to do but instead they say he went off to Target 2 he went off to another planet oh they say where he went Target Two they didn't name the planet okay just Target Two he didn't want to S know where he was don't for the mail their explanation for why elron hubber didn't come back is he's off on target 2 getting Scientology rolling on another planet while we wrap up business on on this planet and get at least half the people in the world into Scientology where I'm going with all this is It's remarkable that the two biggest things Scientology promises you will have or you will get or be able to do should be easily demonstratable if it was real no one's ever done it and scientologists are still able to continue to be convinced that this is why they need to stay in Scientology what could possibly be more important than being able to come back next lifetime without having your memory wiped what could Poss Poss be more important what could possibly be more important than um uh you know actualizing your full true self independent of your body like the ultimate spiritual experience the ultimate um spiritual realization and and yet no one's ever done it no one's ever done it I have never spoken to a Scientologist who actually convinced me that they even really believed they had gone exterior some of them would be like oh yeah I I went exterior once I'll be like really tell me about it and it's very clear very here and then I was over there it's very clear very quick that they're like well I sort of felt this way and I felt that way I'm like it's not a feeling you either did it or you didn't how many fingers am I holding up behind my back if you can't tell me then you did not achieve this ability oh my god did you ever like talk to your mom about some of these Concepts while you were growing up like Mom I'm trying to go exterior what the [ __ ] no not when I was growing up but after we both were out of Scientology we but she still believes in Scientology and so she does she does not like having these kind of conversations wait your mom's out of Scientology but she still believes in it yeah so she doesn't like David mavage she doesn't like the organization and the you know financially ruining its members and all this kind of stuff but she still believes in elron hubard and the technology of Scientology yeah so like zenu and all that yeah well she did the OT levels and she goes you know I you don't have to believe it you just have to audit it and the Emer tells you that it's true and I'm kind of like she's tried to kind of convince me that she didn't really believe it or doesn't really believe it or you don't have to really believe it and I'm like I don't know like it kind of says like it kind of sounds like you don't believe what elron hubard said I don't know it's weird a lot of people who've done the OT levels have said to me something along the lines of you don't really have to believe it you just have to do it I'm like I don't know seems like you should believe it how how deep did she get in OT ot5 okay so she didn't I get she didn't get to zenu level zenu is ot3 he's ot3 okay so she did get to that yeah do you have a good relationship with your mom today it's not excellent yeah but it's a relationship we're in touch okay I that's a new one like you don't really at least I haven't really from the outside heard that much where like people leave but they still believe in some of the concepts I've really only heard of the ones and I'm probably naive on this but I've only heard of the ones where people leave and they're like oh my god what the [ __ ] happened to me in there so actually when you were talking to Tony he mentioned the independent Scientology movement and what that is is people who've left Scientology the Church of Scientology but still believe in Scientology and they practice Scientology outside of the Church of Scientology so my mom's one of those guys so is that like an official it's not an official organization it's not official at all right and um yeah those are people who are more like I guess they might call themselves originalists uh cuz you know you know Protestants to the Catholics if you will pretty much yeah they basically say everything anything that happened in Scientology after elron hubard died is [ __ ] and garbage and throw that away and we're going to stick with the stuff that that was the way it was by the at the point elron hubard died and that was the that was the good stuff interesting and yet none of these people have achieved exteriorization no one's ever come back uh in the next no one's ever come back and been able to uh you know convincingly discuss their past life experiences in a way that was like oh this is for Real yeah you know so um yeah you know one of the things that happens with people who are born into Scientology and it's hard for a parent to accept that they've actually done anything harmful to their child by bringing them into Scientology yeah it really is and that that has been a source of of of conflict between my mom and I not that I'm so dedicated to like shoving her face in the fact that bad things were done but that she gets so defensive about the fact that anything bad ever was done at all or or the one I like the best is you guys wanted to do it it's like no 12year olds want to play baseball and play football we basically just decided that if we had to do this thing we might as well you know get good at it that's a tough I can't imagine that that's a really tough place to be because obviously like there's a part of her even if she still believes maybe in some of the concepts or whatever there's this there seems to me like there's it seems to me like there is a subconscious part of her that's like oh [ __ ] yeah this is bad but you know like she obviously loves her kids and everything and she doesn't want she doesn't want their lives to be more maybe ruined by this than it already was and so maybe like the the trauma of like reliving that and realizing like oh [ __ ] I was the bridge to this to get them into this that's probably really hard for her to even acknowledge I'm guessing yeah it seems to be that way and what makes the uh the conversation a little more complex is like uh I I've in many ways turned out rather well and I you know I'm I'm I'm a pretty successful guy uh I don't seem like I'm some horribly damaged person and so it's kind of like it's easy for my mom to see the things that have gone well for me in life and go well that's because I got you into Scientology so what do you have to complain about and you go well how do I argue with that considering it's the only path I traveled yes um it's it's a complicated thing for parents of of of kids who are in Scientology as kids to Grapple with I mean there there's a lot of people in my shoes who have um difficult relationships with their parents specifically because of the subject of Scientology IM I can imagine for sure but when we we were going off into some things about scientology itself and whatever but within your story the last part we were at was when you were like 15 to 18 something like that working as running the course room in the Philly Scientology location yeah so what what came after that so when I was just before I turned 18 I was getting pretty disillusioned not with Scientology itself but with life at the Philadelphia org it was just it was just terrible the people there it was not I was not having fun at all and it got to the point where it was like I'd just rather do anything other than this so me and my brother moved to Hollywood and uh and I mentioned those freeloader debts earlier right so where if you work for Scientology and you're on one of the contracts and you you don't fulfill the contract you owe them money for everything you did in Scientology so I was 17 years old um I was given a bill for $100,000 $100,000 of all the hours I worked for you yeah you ow for that exactly that's [ __ ] nuts and so of course I never had any intention of paying that because it was just unrealistic of course but mentally I still consider myself a Scientologist so uh for a couple years uh we moved out to Hollywood and just kind of uh lived lived a fun life for a couple years outside no association with Scientology whatsoever and then eventually thing it just got to a point where I was like is this sustainable like am I really going to because I still consider myself a Scientologist I was like I just didn't see where the path was going the path I didn't see the path back I wasn't able to pay the freeloader debt were you what were you doing for work um you know uh some background work on uh some TVs and movies and stuff like that signed up with Central Casting and it was had had a great time it was fantastic yeah so you're making money for yourself at least I was absolutely totally supporting myself but eventually I was like okay I actually have to go back to Philadelphia and finish my contract and so that's in order for me not to have this freeloader debt I actually have to go back to Philadelphia and finish like the last two years I have on my contract yeah but were they like knocking on your door trying to come find you like hey you owe us this money no but I still considered myself a Scientologist wow that strong yeah and I was like okay I've sort of been in denial that I this thing's ever going to get resolved in any way and I guess I have to go back and and finish those two years so I did I finished those two years went back to Philadelphia at that point somewhere in there my Mom finally came back from clearw having finished her training because she actually did the auditor training um and then when my staff contract was up some kids that I had grown up with in the Philly org but had then gone off and join the seaorg and become some high level seaorg Executives uh they came back they came back to town for a wedding with one of their family members and sort of was like uh I they sort of got their hooks into me and was like hey remember how badly you used to want to join the seaorg I was like yeah and they're like uh we'll get you replaced and we'll we'll bring it to La you can join the seaorg right now and within like two weeks I was in LA in the seaorg and I was 22 years old at that point and um and so I was working there on elron hubard way in uh Hollywood Sunset Sunset Boulevard and and I think Vermont is like yeah uh and so then I was in the SE for four years and um and that that was the next chapter of the story four years in the seaorg four years in the seaorg what does that look like um it was actually much easier than being in Philadelphia because all you have to do is focus on your job um so for me comp comparing my four years in the seaorg to all the time I spent at the Philly org it was actually um it was easier to just be there in Focus but again it was it eventually got to the point where it was equally as unfulfilling like there's this there's this this culture and Scientology organizations where they're constantly on witch hunts trying to find who they can blame for the fact that there aren't enough people joining Scientology and and going going up the level I wonder why people are always just fighting and finger pointing and fault finding and eventually I was like I don't need like you guys need me more than I need you I can literally go and do whatever I want um okay now seor members can only marry other seor members and oh yeah that's right right so um I met um I call her my wife because we're not divorced yet um but we're going to be divorced soon um so uh while I was in the seor I met my wife Heather and she had been in the SE for like 14 years whoa she was also born and raised in Scientology whoa and how young was she when she got in well she was she was born in yeah yeah but how young was she when she got into the seaword I think 16 wow yeah I think yeah so she was a little older than you she is older than me she is seven years older than me okay yeah and because you're also not allowed to have children in the seaorg if you if you if you get pregnant you have to either leave or get an abortion and they very much pressure you to try to convince you to get an abortion but we both knew that we didn't want to be there anymore and we knew that the easiest way to get out was to get pregnant so that's what we did and that was in 20 six and that was sort of our easy way out of the seaorg CU I mean they don't want anyone walking around pregnant yeah it's it's crazy to me I think I was talking with Tony about this it's crazy to me that like a religion that wants to grow and continue the organization whatever who happily takes on families with kids coming in who are born into it doesn't want their own members who are marrying each other un by rule yeah to have more I mean I guess I'm glad they're not bringing more kids into it but that that seemed like really ass backwards logic to me it's true one of the easiest ways to understand that aspect of it would be like um the Catholic clergy where like Catholics have lots of kids but the clergy don't the clergy like they have like abstinence like they're not supposed to even like half of them are gay though I know I know you know but that's an example where just saying they want their public members to have kids yeah but the people who' dedic at their lives to work for the church they don't want those people having kids it makes sense now the funny thing about scientology is it's so expensive to do Scientology the Scientologist don't have a lot of kids they just actually don't oh that's right big families are not a thing in Scientology it's totally different than like Mormonism or even even Catholic families like or you know you hear about 10 11 12 kids Scientology it's not like that how expensive was it a year for you when you were in the seaorg oh no in the seaorg you you don't pay for anything you don't pay anything before that when you were when you're a staff member you don't pay for anything still nothing right so it's only the people who are members that don't necessarily work for it correct okay so you didn't experience that as much I did not experience that at all yeah uh and that's not it's not an annual fee it's a it's a it's a pay to-play thing but when you were a kid like your mom had to experience that paying for you right she was on staff oh so her kids don't she doesn't have to pay for anything we might have done the kids courses that are like 100 bucks okay all right so you really didn't you didn't get that but a lot of people within Scientology remember do and they pay yeah I think Leia Remy was like paying hundreds of thousands of dollars at one point I mean oh yeah I mean Leah over her lifetime as a public Scientologist probably gave over $5 million somewhere in that vicinity could she go get that back no oh my God no yeah that's that that Parts wild to me so you get pregnant yeah four years in what I mean did you go like is there is there like a main office office you go to and say I'd like to report a pregnancy like how does it go down literally well every Scientology organization has its one person who's like over the ethics uh Personnel matters ethics matters um called the director of inspections and reports or the Durr uh went to the Durr after morning muster and I said Heather's pregant and we're not getting an abortion just like that yep what' they say they said okay I'll put you on the leaving leaving the seor routing form whoa now is that does that affect backlash within the organization though cuz like now you've dropped out of the seaorg like are you you get a free Lo Bill get a new you get a new freeloader Bill oh another one yeah how big is this one I had only been in for four years and I um uh basically between the two of us at that point it was about $100,000 but cuz she hadd been in for so long but we negotiated it down to 40,000 oh how does that work little negotiation with Scientology yeah you know you and miscavage in the back hey this week buy you buy now we'll give you a 50% credit you know they'll be like hey if we review this if we review this and we knock this off and we give you a credit for this can you pay this week before Thursday oh my God it's like a Scientology time share so you guys paid like a 40 Grand bill yeah like up front yeah I had um before I joined the seor I had bought a house up in North Philly in Al and uh because so many of the Philadelphia staff members were living there I actually was allowed to keep that house the whole time I was in the seor so by the time I left four years later I had a bunch of equity in that house but I took out you know took out a line of credit and PID the $40,000 you pay that in cash or check yeah cash pennies oh you just walk in with a bag count it [ __ ] so you leave the sea Oregon now what happens okay so and how old are you 26 Finding the Deepest Secret of Scientology, Leaving Scientology (Emotional) ‘Disconnection’ Policy now like exactly okay yeah um we are still scientologists at this point and um we're just ex seor members but still scientologists you're not questioning anything at this point really you'd say so this is 2006 life goes on pretty much as normal until 2009 when the Tampa Bay Times starts publishing these interviews of these high level Executives who had all not just left the seaorg but actually left Scientology and these were Executives who worked directly with David mavich and many of them had also work directly with elron hubber and this is where things start to get interesting because I go you know we said earlier how could anything be more important than the promise of what Scientology says it's going to give you it's like even if David M scavage is beating the [ __ ] out of everybody and everyone's on rice and beans and everyone's sleeping on the floor under their desks small price to pay for unplugging planet Earth from the Matrix you go if if you got a taste of what it was actually like to be unplugged from The Matrix how are you bitching about David mavage referen some people up maybe maybe the math isn't working out on this maybe these people know something I don't know so that's when I started I mean I started following all of that very very closely and then started secretly getting in touch with some of of those people because these were people who were famous in Scientology yeah Marty rathen Mike render Tom devat uh Debbie Cook you know these people were famous in Scientology so was there a I mean obviously you're you're reading some of this because you do live in the real world you're a Scientologist but you can get access to it like and it's making you it's giving you a lot of hesitation but do you remember like any one moment where you were like the rubicon's cross like h holy [ __ ] at that point I never had some sort of a a crisis or existential crisis or oh my God what does this mean for me because for me I just felt like I'd always been kind of singularly focused on just figuring out how to do my job the best way I could whether I had Buy in or didn't buy in it was almost like as a child I was put on this path and I followed this path and I tried to get as good as what I had to do as possible and in many I did believe in a lot of the big aspects of scient or the big pieces of the Scientology story like the planet and full operating thean and I I did believe in those things but I didn't it's almost like I had to convince myself there was so many times that I had to convince myself why I should still be there and keep doing this thing even though I really didn't want to I would have to remind myself oh yeah Prison Planet oh that's why we're here okay [ __ ] I forgot I forgot so but so many it's but I had so many times over the years had to convince myself to keep going and there were certain pieces of the puzzle that if I if if I was like oh oh yeah that's why that's why but when I finally found out from one of these Executives in particular named Dan [ __ ] who worked personally with elron hubber and his job in the seaorg was to go through everything elron Hubbert had left behind and figure out what needed to be uh released what what what stuff he left behind that had not yet been released and how to release it sorry to hear that sounds like an awful job yeah out of everyone in Scientology he's someone I knew would know if there were these upper unreleased OT levels that was basically the the magic Holy Grail that all scientologists think they're waiting for he's like there there there's nothing we went through every scrap of paper in every file of every cabinet that elron hubber left behind and we have no idea what it's supposed to be on ot9 10 there's a box of used condoms we got that and for me as soon as I heard that I was like oh it's [ __ ] that that's all I needed to hear yeah I got no crisis whatsoever none was that me did he end up as a source mentioning that for publishing those reports like he's telling you but did he sit did did the reports ever say that as well I don't think the journalists at the time would even care about something that far into the weeds they cared about they care about David mavage beating people they care about people being blocked up they care about torture they don't care about ot9 and 10 I know but that's basically saying like the whole premise of it is a lie like I If I were the journalist I would care about that so the people who cared about stuff like that at the time was like the the the most prominent and recognizable and loudest voices who were those SE members like Marty wthin and Mike render yeah they were the and they each were running their blogs separately at that time I think I I think Mike had his blog going the same time that Marty did do you happen to remember yeah they had it at the same time those are the guys who cared about that kind of stuff and knew that scientologists would care about that kind of stuff cuz honestly who cares about that scientologists care about that and so I don't even know I can't remember as I sit here right now if this if this um information from Dan [ __ ] was in a personal conversation or if it was on one of the blogs or both because I did meet him later you know in in real life um but that kind of information for me was like oh I never like getting auditing anyway I just you know as a Scientologist I never liked getting auditing I just knew can't imagine why I it was horrible I just knew that I was being told auditing was the only path to achieve this thing that was basically required to be unplugged from The Matrix and it was always a problem for me it's like damn I know I got to do that auditing but I really don't like it so once I found out that the path was [ __ ] and you know the gold at the end of the rainbow the pot of gold at the end of was it was just a lie it doesn't exist and that didn't give you like some existential nope I was like sweet I don't worry about anything wow good for you do I mean that's great I'm glad like you didn't have like a crisis of it but you know one of the things I haven't asked you that's kind of the 500lb elephant in the room here is about some of the pressure though that exists because people inside Scientology from what I've heard witness these things happen like when people start to try to leave or stuff like that they'll put private detectives on them or if people are trying to leak things from the outside they'll pressure them and and [ __ ] I mean I I think Mark and I were watching some videos of that that he had guys were coming to do this like when you go to contact these Executives doing these stories are you afraid like your your phone's tapped or like you're being watched or like you're going to get caught for doing this like I was too naive to be afraid good for you yeah but I should have been were they watching I don't know if you've seen my other chats but it's hard to talk about this part of the story without getting emotional and um okay so how it went down for me was my my mom was the first one to sort of like leave Scientology but she didn't want to get kicked out of Scientology she just wanted to sort of fix what was wrong with it and she eventually got officially kicked out for just running her mouth negatively about David mavage to people she should not in scient From scientology's perspective should not have been doing that too right now in Scientology when someone gets kicked out you have to completely several ties with them right so that's called disconnect so I know I said my mom and I don't have a great relationship right now but we were very very close so so realize at this point it's me and my wife my wife's parents have been in Scientology forever my wife's two sisters and brother are in Scientology their spouses are in Scientology all their kids are in Scientology my little brother's in Scientology Scientology is everywhere I work for a Scientologist she works for a Scientologist all that kind of stuff stuff so Scientology tells me that me and my wife and my kids have to disconnect from my mom completely or we're going to get kicked out so for a couple years I pretended like I was disconnected from her but I never really was and because Scientology has this snitching culture where members just report on each other all the time I was getting a little careless and lazy about how carefully I was keeping this secret and I would kind of let things slip to friends of mine who I sort of suspected might also be on the way out to sort of test them mhm and that was of course playing with fire and that's where I got burned So eventually people who were supposed to be my friends and even my kids even my daughter's The Nanny even the Scientologist that we had hired to be the nanny for our daughters is like secretly asking our kids if they still see their their grandmother right now we never told our kids they were so young at that time we never said hey you're not allowed to tell anyone that you see Grandma like we never told them that like how do you even explain to a kid you can you can't So eventually Scientology keeps getting reports that I'm still in touch with my mom and also because I'm getting a little lazy here and a little lazy there they start to figure out that I'm that I'm posting on these blogs of of Mike and Marty right okay so eventually they're like okay guy's just going to keep lying to us about being connected to his mom so they officially kick me out and so then they go to Heather my wife and they go well you've got to disconnect from your your husband you have to divorce your husband and you and the girls have to disconnect from from him and she goes now you would think that in a normal marriage you would just be like how why would I ever divorce my husband but scientologists don't think that way like like relationships are just transactional so she tried to lay it out to them and she goes let me show you why the math doesn't work for me we have three children those children love their father if I divorce him just so I can stay in Scientology he is still going to have custody half custody of our daughters because I'm still connected to him until the girls turn 18 I'm not going to be allowed to do Scientology anyway because I'll be connected to a suppressive person through our kids then the kids will turn 18 and then I will have to give them some sort of an ultimatum of who they're going to be connected with and they're obviously going to pick the parent who isn't giving them the ultimatum yeah so then not only will I have lost my husband I will then have lost my kids and and I will not have been able to do Scientology in all this time anyway so they go oh so you're not going to you're not going to divorce him and she's like no I'm not going to divorce him and they go okay you're out so so then they go to her parents who already have three other kids and numerous grandkids and they go you guys have to disconnect from your daughter who is their oldest daughter right they have four kids and Heather's their oldest daughter and they say you have to disconnect from your daughter and your three grandaughter daughters or you guys are going to get kicked out and and this is really the point where Scientology just gets when when you know when Scientologist says they can leave if they want to and you go if they want to so at that point Heather's parents are basically just going which kids and grandkids would we like to never see again you know and for what for what for nothing right for [ __ ] and so so they disconnect and that was in 2014 and then Heather's Heather's father died like maybe three years ago or something and um he apparently had had had cancer for a couple years and no one had ever told her and um no one did tell her until he was in the hospital the last 3 days he had to live and she went to the hospital to see him he was very happy to see her none of her other family members would speak to her or see her at the hospital and um at this time her parents owned um they didn't live in these houses but they owned the houses literally across the street from us and um they were like rental properties and they would do the maintenance on these houses themselves and so oh you they be right there well when they were over there cuz our kids didn't know anything about what was going on they didn't understand why they weren't going to breakfast at Grandma and Grandpa's every week right oh my God and so when they would go over there we would send the kids over say go say hide at Grandma Grandpa and sometimes they would run into the house and hide from the kids and sometimes the kids would catch them before they could get into the house and then what actually happened is um Heather's mother whenever the kids would actually succeed in like talking to her or seeing her the the mom would go report herself to the ethics officer oh my God and because the mom kept self-reporting herself Scientology told them they had to sell those properties so that they wouldn't see the kids so they sold the properties and that was the last time the kids saw their grandparents and um so on my YouTube channel I will sometimes say I'm doing this channel just to be David mavic's worst nightmare and I don't pretend like I'm doing it for any reason other than that even though there's plenty of other benefits and plenty of ways that you know people get helped just by everything we're doing on YouTube but I don't pretend that I'm doing it for any other reason than to be his [ __ ] worst nightmare because even when my mom was declared and they were trying to get me to disconnect and I had gotten caught I said look you guys don't understand if you just leave me alone I won't say anything bad to anyone I won't talk to Scientologist and talk [ __ ] about David mavage or zenu or any of this [ __ ] I won't try to do Scientology I'll just I'll do my own thing you guys if you make me disconnect from her first of all she's going to go nuclear and she's going to be your worst enemy at that time that's actually what I was saying cuz you can't say I'll be your worst enemy that's a threat and they'll just kick you right away I was like you're going to make her an enemy so you could you could get away with diverting it that's right but then even even later when I was sort of on the verge of of being kicked out I I made I made the same argument so like I already tried everything I could to keep uh well the family together um and Scientology just refus uses to just treat people with any [ __ ] Humanity they just do not care it and honestly and when I say Scientology so everything that happens everything that happens these days in Scientology is a direct reflection of David mavic's intention and will everything everything and so when I say Scientology is a destructive cult I'm talking about just this aspect of how it destroys families who actually love each other Heather was always so close with her parents and her sisters and her nieces and nephews like the only wedge that drove that family apart was Scientology insisting it had to be that way you say that Scientology has no regard for Humanity though and the symbolic reason that doesn't surprise me is cu it's a religion whatever you want to call it that quite literally teaches that everyone here is just a prisoner sent here by something else so it's not even real that's right so there is no Humanity that's right and it gets it gets that that exact same train of thought it goes she's not your daughter yeah you don't give birth to a thetan yeah that's right your bodies created Destroying People’s Lives, David Miscavige's Becoming Leader that body and then a thetan popped into it you have no relationship with that Thon beyond that that's part of the Matrix that's part of the Trap you thinking that your family is so important is part of the Trap like that's how sick it is and that is honestly I know SC it's easy for scientologists to Coast through and not actually realize that that really is what their body of knowledge means and it doesn't really come into Focus until it happens to you because elron hubber talks about suppressive persons and all this stuff and when you read those policies you're like yeah yeah this makes sense because he's talk he uses examples like Hitler not Grandma who read something bad about scientology on the internet right so even even as a Scientologist when I read all the stuff about disconnection and fair game and SPS and ptss all that made sense to me it all makes sense when you think it's talking about something over here and then they're like no we're talking about your wife yeah we're talking about your mom Y and um that's why I do what I do you do a great [ __ ] job at it but you know it when we do these episodes on Scientology naturally there's a lot of funny stuff around it for sure so we get a good laugh I think humor and life is great but part of the reason I am so fascinated by this topic and and and interested in in covering it on the show is for exactly what you just did right there because it is something that you know even if there's only 40 50,000 people in it there's that means there's 40 50,000 people who are living under some [ __ ] psycho regime that has no regard not only for their Humanity but for what I think is at the core of meaning of life which is like love you know like they don't they don't want you to feel that and yet this is the same type of organization that pulls you in because you're going to be more successful doing this that's why you come in which is that's also an emotion too right success I work hard I get a good work ethic I Rise up I do things and this is helping me do it so they're kind of it speaks out of both sides of its mouth in the worst way because it sucks you in and then once you're there it tortures you and tells you that every natural urge you have as a human is not real it can [ __ ] off and if you don't like it we're gonna make your life hell that's right so I think it's a very small price to pay there not a nearly big enough price to pay that you're over here with a big YouTube channel R ripping them a new [ __ ] every day but it'd be great if there were like 7,000 channels your size doing it 247 maybe that would like make the full Dent that they deserve cuz it's really like hearing a story like that I I mean I obviously you're it's it's extremely emotional thing but I'm sitting over here with a pissed off look on my face cuz like these are kids in the middle of this forget even you guys like that's horrible what they did with with your mom and you and the parents of your white like that's that's horrible but then to have the grandkids be sucked into something that they have no control over and you know that like her parents love those kids but they've been told they're not allowed to do that something and and the fact that then they were so deep that they had to believe that I mean that that's that's trauma not just for that for the kids like that that's [ __ ] crazy to me man and then it gets it goes further right so then I first tell my story publicly publicly on Leah Remy's television show in the first season and what do I get I get Aaron Smith l.com a hate website created by the Church of Scientology yeah I've seen this everyone who went on Leah's show got that yep everyone and um so it's not enough to destroy a family you then actually have to D try to try to destroy the person you have to try to destroy them professionally you have to try to ruin them utterly fortunately it don't [ __ ] work anymore yeah they can't get away with it yeah people see through it they can't get away with it um and you know one of the things that I've tried to do once my channel kind of started blowing up is to get as many other former scientologists as possible on YouTube doing the same thing it's the one place where you can say it without being censored you don't have to ask for permission and then got for bid you get a little cherry on top and eventually start earning some ad revenue and I mean honestly it's a huge it's a huge like oh wow so you don't have to be a martyr to do this anymore you could actually dedicate it dedicate yourself to it and and encourage other people to and so we started calling it sptv and then we created the sptv foundation to help people who are leaving Scientology not have to go through all this on their own and um and so we've tried to figure out how to take all this momentum and all this effort and energy and channel it in as productive and helpful a way as possible but I still go back to those those basic barebones I don't give a [ __ ] all that stuff is great and we'll do do as much good work as we can I'm here to be David mavic's worst [ __ ] nightmare and if that means making a hundred channels like mine then that's what I want to do that's why I try to help other people build uh other former Scientologist build their channels up as much as possible because YouTube is the place where scient they can't stop you they can't stop you it's not like they can get a documentary killed they can get a book killed they can do all this stuff they cannot stop you on YouTube it is hugely powerful and everyone sees right through their fake views on their Channel just want to throw that one out there what was that one that 57 million views or something yeah yeah with like 10 comments or some [ __ ] like that it's unbelievable like the the stupidity but you know we keep mentioning miscavage and I'm sure we're going to talk about him a lot tomorrow so I would imagine you're not a fan fair to say no okay good I I knew that but we had to make sure so if if we're flying around with some jokes at Miss scavage that's going to be cool with you that's my life all right all right good so he is such a fascinating guy to me he's so easy to make fun of too but at at the end of it he he's the tip of a spear he's he's worse than a mob boss in a lot of ways and unfortunately I have to give him this from a financial standpoint he seems to be quite crafty at keeping the organization flush but you had mentioned it earlier and I know Tony had dug into this on episode 210 that we did together about the whole process where he ended up taking over the organization and by 1988 but you know if you don't mind can we go through some of that power struggle again for people who didn't see that podcast and how a really a young man like came to be in charge of this organization when the founder himself had dropped his body yeah absolutely and I'll do my best you know I wasn't there at the time but what Dave must have been 24 years old took over so the thing is when when elron hubard went off into seclusion he brought two of his Messengers named Pat broker and Annie broker they were the only people who knew where El hubard was for the last six years of his life uh he had a doctor named Dr Eugene Dan and um and there was maybe a couple other people who knew on the other side of like the actual Scientology operation David mavich just sort of kind of managed to rise to the top it's funny because it's when I say to the top sounds like it's very specific and it's very literal there was a whole Echelon of Executives Scientology was never other than elron hubard was never supposed to be run by one person ever not even Pat and Annie were like it was almost like elron H was always very clear that it was Committees of people that were supposed to take over running things David mavich was had a reputation for just being ruthless at attaining uh ruthless and effective at accomplishing tasks he was given um and he did not hesitate to just take out people who he seemed who he saw as competition and so whereas someone like a Mike render would be able to more accurately describe the various organizations that existed at that time and who was at the top of those organizations and and what is it that gave David mavage his his special power that he had at that time but one thing that I very specifically remember is that David mavage was tasked by elron hubard with getting rid of all of the pending litigation against elron H so that he could come out of seclusion and this was called the special project and David mavich was the special project I see or the special project in charge because that project was so important and all-encompassing it sort of put him in a position of power over the actual official Church structure if you know what I mean can you pull the mic in just a little oh sorry about that yeah it gave him a a specific quality of power and he he and Pat broker were also basically like um the bottleneck of information that that's all information had to pass through David mavich and Pat broker so even all the the weekly reports from church management that had to be delivered to elron hubber it's David mavage who would take those you know meet David mavage you know dumpster behind the 7-Eleven and and give it good time not a long time and give it to Pat and then Pat would give it to to lrh these people Dave and Pat together could manipulate LR to do what whatever they wanted by just feeding him false information about people this per like they could literally get elron hubber to issue orders that someone should be removed from post and assigned to the RPF someone who elron hubard used to know and trust but and this is the other thing where you go shouldn't elron hubard have been smart enough to know that he had put himself in a position to be right exactly and why did he need these secret info dumps couldn't he just exteriorize and go have go over there or couldn't you just telepathically or couldn't you just telepathically communicate with the the OTS that he had put in charge of the church like if you think you're asking questions below your OTA exactly you don't have the [ __ ] rank to ask those questions you know but this is how David mavich Rose to a position of power where once elron hubber died he had the um connections and power that he needed on the organizational side to eventually get rid of Pat now the way he got rid of Pat was by calling Pat's Bluff when Pat claimed to have ot9 and 10 and 11 and 12 and 13 and 14 and 15 and Pat didn't make something up he couldn't give him you know the fake tablets it would be so hard to make up something that seemed believable enough mushrooms in the world man you could do it so there was this Warehouse um if I'm recalling the story correctly that all of lr's stuff was in and it was like guarded you know you know and and and and this is where Pat claimed he had all the stuff well David scavage and Marty wthin and Mike render and a whole bunch of other names that scientologists would recognize um basically showed up to this place with like shotguns and everything right and said we have an inside man that has just told us the FBI is about to show up and raid this location we have to get everything in here out now or it's going to be in the hands of the feds so they loaded up everything in the warehouse took it somewhere off site and over time went through everything and once David mavage realized Pat did not have the OT levels he said you done son and it was only a matter of time before Pat broker was out of there because the truth is Pat broker didn't want to run Scientology he wanted to keep running El run hub's horse ranch he was just spending he became a Horseman yeah he was yeah wow some people are assmen some people are Horsemen and you know Pat was just you know the people I know who knew Pat was like he was just always lazy liar like he he he was in no position to run Scientology and he had no interest he just wanted to keep lr's money and just living his horse life um so once Dave got rid of Pat you know Pat just disappeared he's alive he's out there man you you should try to find him is he still is he like does he consider himself a Scientologist no no totally totally away from nothing to do with it good for him yeah that's yeah and that was really there was there was a couple other people maybe um Janice Gillum Grady I always forget her sister's name for some reason what's Janice's sister's name is iton no oh we're both embarrassed um you know uh Janice gr and her sister oh Terry Post-1967 Scientology, Scientology Politicians and Angle, Fake Mega Pastors Terry Gamboa Terry uh there were two people who had worked very closely with elron hubard for a whole lot of years um there there's two examples of people who perhaps could have been in in a position to potentially Take Over Control of the church David mavage just had look he he has a lot of energy yes and when he needs to the Charisma that we were talking about yeah we got to I mean if you're going to talk about how a guy gets in this position unfortunately you do have to give him the compliments of of the things that allow him to get there he definitely has ambition he definitely has a lot of energy like you said he's ruthless and he's business savvy in some ways and mixes when you mix ruthlessness with business savvy I mean we know how that looks for sure yeah so that's it he was never selected by elron hubber to take over Scientology uh and it's funny because um there's not a Scientologist in the world who would believe believe that that he was not selected that's part of the lore of David mavage it's part of what gives him his power is that he has spun this tale that he was the chosen one within Scientology and now people have left it okay exact sense but he the thing about him is like obviously elron hubber was [ __ ] crazy and had all these weird rules and just created the whole weird thing but it seems like the that ruthlessness we just talked about went at least when I hear these stories it went up a whole another level when miscavage took over yeah is that fair to say I think it is fair to say so before miscavage took over were they doing like some of the sick and private detectives on people and stuff like that that already existed at least uh that that definitely already existed one of the big turning points in Scientology becoming kind of this like militaristic hostile aggressive dangerous organization things got much worse in in 1967 when he created the sea organization MH and then he created the the Scientology ethics codes and the ethics conditions and Justice became important and monitoring behavior and thoughts became more and more important so from 1967 onwards things got more I want to say militarized it's probably not the right word to use but um much more strict and stringent and aggressive and hostile um and I mean look it's not uncommon for like SE gers to literally like come to physical blows with each other like it's not even like like imagine that being like Oh we worked at Microsoft and my boss you know swung on someone in the conference meeting today it's like that's normal in the seaorg it's not necessarily considered great but it is common wow you know was at the morning meeting and the captain decided to swing on his deputy and people had to tackle him to the ground you're like yeah it didn't it didn't used to be like that in like the the the early 60s um so yeah once um the answer is that those types of uh really uh heavy-handed and over-the-top tactics did exist before mavage um and in in in many many ways Miss gavage has made a lot of things much worse and in other ways we can point to examples where things have actually gotten better in weird ways like what like um they're they're not using quite as much effort to force people to have abortions in the seaorg these days oh right like some of the recent and they got rid of the RPF yeah um small things but again but again those changes weren't changes they made because they're like we should improve the quality of life of our members they're like no we need to not have these things constantly end up in lawsuits right but the these if I'm understanding correctly from earlier in the podcast these are things that are in recent years since like the power of media has been able to expose some of these things so that means for 30 some years or almost 30 years whatever it is of him being in charge like he was upping the ante on all this stuff for a long time yes so behind the scenes like you know the other 500lb elephant in the room here is the fact that his wife Shelly is like missing and so obviously they still do some of this [ __ ] to his own wife in this case and Tony and I talked at length about where they believe she is in Northern California and all that but like people can't even confirm if she's like alive and whatever so they still do these things in the open and somehow there's still this tax exempt organization that can be listed as a religion I don't that's never going to sit with me as making sense like what where is the US government on this at this point eventually when some politician whether it's a representative or whether it's a senator realizes how popular it would make them oh my God to Champion the cause of revoking Scientology tax exam status when that day comes things will happen that they'd be a pop cultural phenomenon exactly right they' never lose an election here's here's the play Scientology made Scientology has tried to infiltrate the conservative wing of the United States of of the US how so um they use gret of anustan they use uh she's still around Joy Villa gret gret is still around did you I know you remember Joy Villa she popped up for a hot minute that name ring a bell she would wear the Trump dresses to the gra wait she was a Scientologist too well she is she is and has been that's why she popped up girl oh my god um so here here's why they're infiltrating the conservative wing of uh the US they need to convince Christians that if the Christians allow the IRS to come for Scientology the Christians are next they have to convince the Christians to fight Scientology fight for them one of these guys eventually has to call [ __ ] on this when to say these guys whoever is you know um it's you know politics and religion that you know we we all know they overlap oh yeah and I'm just saying I don't know who the guy is but um somewhere somewhere in this whole puzzle there is someone who's the guy who's like an opinion leader enough in the uh the religious sphere and op an opinion leader enough in the political sphere that they can be like we have to stop letting Scientology make a fool out of us they are not like us they are not one of us they are a family destroying human trafficking cult who are hiding behind this cloak of religion and they think we're going to carry their water for them because they want to scare us into thinking that religious liberty will be threatened if we revoke Scientology tax exam status one of these guys has to stand up and go and and not only go I'm the one that's going to call [ __ ] on that but let's realize all politicians act in their own self-interest of course but the one of these guys has to realize it would be in their own self-interests what could be more popular than standing up and saying I'm going to lead the charge on let just holding Congressional hearings into revoking Scientology tax exam status course let's just put that first that'd be must that'd be on HBO great a documentary on that in 5 minutes I know and so it's like all the former scientologists in the world can do all the content on YouTube and make David David mavic's life miserable and we can keep helping people leave Scientology all day long and that's great but even if there's still a thousand scientologists left and Scientology still has tax exemption that should be a horrible embarrassment for the for the United States of America yeah I I maybe I'm thinking of this a little bit too broadly but when you bring up the Christianity point the cringy parts of Christianity are like to me like the mega church people like those dudes who are like riding around in Bentley and saying pay me for God right but they have huge huge groups of people who follow them who are all voting blocks by the way and like they want to keep the gravy train going so they they're not a hell of a lot different to me by the way maybe they don't imprison people and [ __ ] but like that's the problem when you're dealing with the whole like Christianity thing as a whole it's sucking in all the ones that are doing it correctly like Allie here and then you're getting like some of these mega church guys who have some Mulan followings and they're ruining it for everyone with the politicians I agree the Joel Joel Austins of the world are problematic but I will at least say this more people show up for Joel Austin's Sunday service than there are scientologists in the world yeah exactly exactly I think Joel Aus could probably fill Dallas Stadium uh the Cowboy stadium you couldn't get five ,000 people to show up for a David miscavage event if you spent three months booking it so so you're right and and it might be that and I you know I'm referring collectively to Christians only because they they are the ones who have the power to actually do something about this yeah um they are the ones who have the power to actually go religious freedom in the United States is not put in jeopardy by revoking Scientology tax exempt status and and and and and it might be that they go [ __ ] we've got our own Joel Austins [ __ ] we don't want to ah man we can't do something it's like no you can I agree there's something wrong with you know uh pastors having 50,000 foot mansions and private jets but they at least have at least massive congregations Scientology is it's it's it's scamming its members it's harming its members it's lying to its members you know what Joel Austin I promise you believes in heaven and believes in God and believes that Jesus died for our sins I would probably buy that David mavich knows there's no ot9 and 10 and he's lying to everyone about it like it's an actual fraud I believe that even these Mega pastors believe uh in heaven what about the guy who was selling plots of land in heaven who was doing oh you didn't see this can we pull this up Christian Pastor selling this is like pretty recent this was the other day I think I tweeted this too but Christian Pastor selling plots of land in heaven yeah you got to see this when I see [ __ ] like this I'm almost like the people who actually bought it I can't feel bad I'm just oh my God all right yeah yeah here we go Eternal real estate here it is a church in Mexico is selling plots of land in heaven go down a church in Mexico is helping people prep for eternity by selling plots of land in heaven according to the pastor of anoms who claim to have received quote permission from God unquote I love these guys who get permission the church is offering Heavenly real estate for the simple price of $100 per square meter pictures of the offer have been circulating on social media showing a brochure with an elaborate depiction of a Holy House of the clouds the illustration features a family ascending a golden staircase to their new Celestial home the brochure also clarifies that the church accepts various payment options including PayPal Google pay Visa Master Card American Express prison and hell that's all I have to say to [ __ ] like but that's very Scientology of them in a way in a different you know belief system but at this in 2018 Zimbabwe and Pastor was arrested after selling tickets to heaven to his congregation for $533 person yeah H you know it is true if if the IRS revokes Scientology tax exempt status they might um have to start doing some more heavy lifting on taking a look at some of these other guys as well but the thing is Scientology already lost its tax exempt status once yeah when was Scientology on Tax Exemption Status, Finding Job After Leaving, Helping People Out that again uh I I'm not going to get the date right but like someone some fact Checker out there might 58 or something 56 or something um it the the IRS revoked the status because they determined that Elon hubard was personally enriching himself from the funds it was inurement yeah lost this exemption in in 1957 and 1968 both there you go and then what but something happened in I'm getting it mixed up in my head something happened in 93 too right 93 they got it back most recently and theyve never lost it since okay they got it back in so they had it off from 67 and 93 they had they did not have it right right yeah and didn't they do like a blackmail campaign to do that yeah they sued like they filed like 2,000 individual lawsuits against individual irss employees not against the IRS but they would sue the actual employee it's kind of Genius not going to lie I know right when you're Des like Mavish is not a dummy no got to give it to him so they get they get it back in 93 they've never lost it since right and he this is what Mark bunker was really digging into that blew my mind like he's built he's used his coffers to build like a real estate Empire and he'll buy up a lot of real estate for example in Clearwater that's all in the same area so it creates it's like a ghost town of Scientology in half the town that's right it's intentional and one of the reasons he does this is because as a tax exempt organization they're not allowed to just accumulate money and do nothing with it buying property is one of the permitted uses and if Scientology says we need this building for our congregation the IRS isn't really allowed to go in and be like is there anybody even in the building yeah and so it's the one thing that mavage can spend his money on and technically it's not an expense it's just taking assets from the cash column and putting it into the real you know the real real assets column yeah yeah uh and it also helps him uh it's one of the ways he's allowed to continue to convince he's able to continue to convince scientologists that they're still expanding throughout the world because he's like look we just had to get a a big brand new building but it's empty yeah and their population as you said has been dwindling since the peak in the 80s it's down to I think like 40,000 something like that it's between 20 and 35,000 okay yeah but scientologists don't know that scientologists think there's millions of members this is the crazy thing about what it it's like to just be in a cult and how it you know your thoughts are really controlled think of it this way if the in the late 80s early 90s Scientology was claiming 10 million members even if they've had zero growth there's only about 150 Scientology organizations in the world if there were only five million members there would be over 70,000 scientologists per org anyone who Works in any one of these Orcs could tell you they can't put together 200 Scientologist per org they just don't think about it they don't think about it's math what I see in front of me what does that mean if that's true everywhere they just don't have that thought they're that deep I didn't I didn't have those thoughts when I was in you're just too damn busy trying to do your job you just don't it sounds crazy yeah when you when you left though after that whole very traumatic ordeal like now you're out in the real world what' you go do for a job right away um I got into the hedge fund research I was for the last for the last five years I was in Scientology I got into the hedge fund research space and so that's what I continue to do when okay so you at least like had that as an offramp the fact that I was doing very well financially is probably what kept me from just completely melting down I'm sure I'm sure but now you're out you're getting hit with all this crazy realities in front of your face families getting ripped apart and all that you had vowed though to make yourself like an with David mavage is worst enemy what like worst worst nightmare were how were you planning to do that at first assuming you weren't first thinking YouTube right away oh no no no um I I had started my YouTube channel quite early on after leaving so that was I didn't start uploading every day until like two years ago but that was plan a you wanted to go straight to YouTube for this yeah I didn't have any other I didn't have any other idea of how I was going to do that yeah I mean obviously it's worked out pretty smart yeah but like you you also mentioned you were you work with people who are trying to leave Scientology and stuff like that so in a way you're kind of like a counselor to the other world right oh yeah we we're we're we're shuttling people from from the underworld into the light what's that like like when when when you get someone that I assume they're contacting you like covertly something like that like hey I want to leave like what's what's the usual is there like any one usual impetus that makes them that makes someone that calls you want to leave these days believe it or not it's because they've been watching stuff on YouTube and it's gotten them to start questioning things other than that people usually start questioning things when horrible things happened to them that they thought could never have happened to them like what happened to me and my family yes I never thought that could ever happen when it does happen to you you're like as as happening you're like holy holy crap or if it happens to someone close to you that you know it is Scientology that ends up turning its own members away in most cases it is scientology's horrible treatment of its own members that ends up getting them to be like is it just me or is there something wrong with this organization is it David mavich is it elron hubard are there other people like me who are having these same problems now these days because there's so much information out there on YouTube very often part of um part of this uh this equation is they they they found some videos of former scientologists who and they go these guys don't seem like they're rabid and hateful and lying like they seem to really know what they're talking about they seem honest they seem genuine they don't seem to have an agenda and holy [ __ ] maybe maybe I've got some thinking to do my eyes don't deceive me yeah yeah and the thing is that one of the things that can be hard for scientologists on their path out is we haven't even really gotten into all the kind of Scientology terminology and there'd be no point because it's incomprehensible but it's very hard for a Scientologist talk especially who's considering you know leaving you can't talk to any of your friends cuz they'll turn you in yeah you can't talk to your partner because they'll turn you in you can't talk to your kids you can't talk to your parents there's no one to talk to so they end up looking online and like oh my God so often times the the first contact with someone who's who's leaving it's very easy they're just relieved to be able to explain what they've been going through to someone who actually understands what they're talking about so there's no on that first phone call or meet up however you do it I mentioned phone call okay they're usually not like scared and hesitant they are they are but once they once they start un unloading it's like oh my God it's like just a waterfall like a therapy session yeah or a hydrant yeah whoa and how long like are there some that you really it's a struggle for a while they're on the fence they don't want to go and if they're on the fence I tell them hey look that you no one can twist your arm and convince you to make these kind of Life Changes where the stakes are this high I never try to talk someone out of Scientology I try to listen to them and acknowledge them and talk to them but I will never try to convince them to leave cuz look I stayed under the radar which means I was sort of mentally out but was still a Scientologist in good standing from 2009 to 2014 that's five years that's a long time so I'll be like look no I'm because I go I'm never going to talk someone into losing their family you know like I'm never going to get on the phone with some to be like no what you really should do is the thing that's going to make all of your family disconnect from you it's like if you're going to make that decision it's going to be because you feel like you couldn't even live another day without doing this so because the stakes are so high that's like when I say I'll never talk someone convince someone to leave that's what I mean the stakes are so high you can't try to make someone feel guilty for not leaving I go look do whatever is best for you I usually I say the first thing that you need to do is get a job that doesn't rely on Scientology you have to maybe Grant Cardone was right about one thing you got to get your money right it's a hell of a place to make me laugh but that was funny so like like often what happens someone just needs someone they can talk to who actually understands what they're talking about and then yes they'll always ask for advice but my advice is always what's right for you what's your situation what's your family situation like what's your work situation like what's your relationship situation like and where would you like it to be like and also and are you doing okay like are are you like suicidal are you like horribly depressed because I'm also not trying to be like no you should yeah like you have to they have to do what's right for them God it's so heavy there's so many variables too and every person's different as well but you guys are you guys are kind of like the Underground Railroad for Scientology yeah like in a way like is do you envision you and and some of the other people who have who have left Scientology and and are helping people get out do do you envision like longterm having a process where you know you could you could literally help people get placed into careers and do things like that that can help them on the back end so you do that already absolutely yeah wow that's amazing yeah the thing is when people in the real world hear someone's Scientology story and that they're leaving and what they're going through they want to give them a shot they want to help them out that's that's great they want to go you're doing the right thing we're going to give you a shot so like uh even on doing rums and whatnot well some of the things that ends up happening is we figure out how to put a resume together where it doesn't say I've been working for the Church of Scientology for the last 20 years you put it together in a way that looks okay on a resume and then when you get into the interview you go let me tell you what's I'm sorry I'm crying but I would not recommend the crying it's like let me tell you what's really going on you know I put some [ __ ] on my resume because I've been working for the Church of Scientology for the last 20 years but I don't want to put that on a rese I'm sorry it's all right take it down me getting emotional about this is just knowing how much people in the real world want to help people who are leaving Scientology it's awesome oh yeah and it's what happened when I got declared so I've been working for this scientologist in Scientology he's famous his name is Kurt feshbach and he and his brothers had the first billion dollar short only fund back in the ' 80s and they went broke but he was still a famous Scientologist and he he opened up his uh hedge fund research business he opened it back up um about 5 years before I left Scientology I have no high school education I don't have an equivalency degree or nothing but he taught me the business and while working for him for five years I got to know some of the biggest names in the industry got to work with some of the biggest hedge funds in the industry and made some really great contacts and when he uh the Scientology gave him the heads up that I was going to get declared so that he could lay me off before that so that I couldn't have a lawsuit against him for religious discrimination right so but so when he laid me off I had no idea what I was going to do nothing did he come to you and do it personally um it him and his Deputy yeah what was that like oh they they just pretended it was just [ __ ] thing of oh his health is deteriorating and he needs someone to fully take over and you're not quite up to that and it was a total [ __ ] story okay I never would have gone into business for myself I I didn't have some father figure Mentor business like it's not I it's it's I wasn't wired that way I didn't even consider it an option I didn't even know where to begin yeah it was it was it was one guy in the hedge fund industry who said you're too good at this to go off and do something else I'm going to help you get your LLC set up I'm going to introduce you to a fund that I think you can sign as your first client and um and and it'll be up to you to uh impress the sh impress the hell out of him and when I'm talking to these guys who are you know running billion dollar hedge funds I don't try to shine them on I mean at at this particular time I was like they' be like hey how come you're not with Falcon research anymore and I'd be like you know I can't remember if I was able to say this to them without getting emotional but I said I know that's a pretty normal question to ask and I know you're not intending to like go really deep on this but in order to give you an honest answer I kind of have to really tell you what's going on and I would have to tell them the Scientology story and I have to tell them about my mom and my and my kids and my wife and my parents and and her parents and they would just be like you've made the right decision and we're going to we're going to we're going to give you a shot that's amazing you know and then that um it it made everything possible for me it's like I was making 10 times more money after getting kicked out of Scientology than than I was when I was in doing the exact same thing and it never would have happened now I realize not everyone's going to have that exact same experience but it's like I've already walked that walk I know what it's like to have to explain something that many people would find embarrassing but be I mean you know a lot of people might be embarrassed that they work for Scientology or whever in scient ology but it's like if that's what it takes to get the person across from you to understand why you put some [ __ ] on your resume but you tell them what's going on in the interview and be like I'm going to work my guts out give me two weeks you'll want me to run the place and if not I'll leave powerful get your foot in the door by being honest about it because people out there want to help people who are leaving Scientology well that that's a really good thing yeah that's great that's great to hear there's people out there like that but also and obviously like it worked out for you and they're helping other people who you get to help now too from the other side but like also you know I think it might be different if I were an adult when I got in and then went to leave later cuz I might be real What Happened to Aaron’s Family, Tom Cruise’s Messy Family & Value embarrassed about that but if you're like yo I was born into this and I left I'm just I mean this is just how I'd be I'd be like so empathetic to that because it's all you ever knew and I'm I'd be like more like those people were more power to you like great hop on board you know like you want to help people like that because they never had a chance right you know like like it's supposed to be a country of like Second Chances but you're talking to people who never got a first one right you know so it it's it's powerful stuff but I mean you know I see how emotional you are reliving this that you've had to relive so many times it's kind of like right under the surface and you know if you watch a lot of my videos I'm very upbeat I'm very high energy I'm very and that's how I like to be um it's embarrassing that I have to every time I come it's not embarrassing at all it's really it's it's powerful stuff I know but I went up and um Andy stump uh Andy stump from cleared hot he's a former seal yeah I know Andy St I said Andy you're a former seal I've seen some seals come on here and tell some stories about some crazy stuff without crying and I'm I don't want to be a little [ __ ] and cry in your podcast I'm like but I'm not sure if I can help it he's like just do it yeah yeah dude everyone's got their own experience and this is I I would argue that like something as a child that you were a part of and and the power of that with all the we haven't even gotten to the rest of your family what happened there but like you know yeah if if if you're going to be emotional about something that's that's at the top of the list right there for sure I'm sure he understood that yeah no no he did yeah yeah so you but you you keep talking about how it was it the Crux of it was like your mom and you at a similar time where she's getting kicked out you're told to disconnect you're like get the [ __ ] out but you had brother sister step sisters all this stuff in and there when did they leave my mom uh divorced the guy who was the parent of my step brother my step sister when I was still in Clear Water training so they were out of the picture early on okay my younger brother lives a couple miles from me haven't seen him in 5 six seven years he's married got it he's he's got a he's got a daughter that I've never met and and my brother hasn't seen my girls in in years and um and then I had an identical twin brother who died in a car crash when I was 23 and oh my God before that happened he had been declared as oppressive person as well and me and my mom had to disconnect from him so like between me disconnecting from my brother and then him dying and then my my kid's mom disconnecting from her dad and then him dying it's like this is why I do what I do it's like I don't like creating the foundation and helping people leave that's icing that's kind that's icing on that's I on the cake that's giving everything we do kind of a greater purpose but all that could not exist and I would still be doing what I'm doing just to be the biggest possible nightmare I can to David mavich and the cult of Scientology well like I said I'm glad you're doing it 100% I mean someone's got to and and there's other people out there like you mentioned who are doing it as well but you guys are also fighting a huge PR battle in the middle of this because the one thing that like obviously has drawn a lot of attention to society or to Scientology over the years is that they Market some major names who joined them and you know we've mentioned Tom Cruz today and whatever but he continues to be this highlevel person there we see them grooming Elizabeth Moss who I believe was born into it into that kind of role we see guys like Michael Peña in there John Travolta I mean these are these are names that the average person recognizes and they're like oh I want to be like them and maybe join so you know you guys who are fighting against this in a way like you're not a you're not an actor you're not a movie star or something you're not this celebrity so you're like the normal man and the way that they can fight back against or one of the ways they can fight back against is well look at the really highlevel successful people who are famous who are in our organization you got to believe them or a Aon it's true it's true but funny enough you could be like when's the last time Tom Cruz spoke about scientology he got his ass whipped in 2005 when he did that didn't work out very well for him or his career at that time and then his career started doing a little better when he stopped talking about scientology even though his wife left him and then he dis you know disowned his only daughter but I my point is even the people Scientology would point to do they even talk about scientology yeah that's it's it's like it's like Fight Club you don't talk about it it's crazy but like he did so did he decide to disconnect from his daughter or did they pressure him to do that oh Scientology definitely did not pressure him to disconnect from his daughter so he decided if anything Scientology would want him to stay connected to his daughter so that um so that Katie would not pull her totally out of Scientology forever so I believe that it was probably Katie her dad her team who saw what happened with Connor and Isabella the the children that Tom and Nicole adopted and how Tom how how Connor and Isabella were poisoned against Nicole and indoctrinated to believe that she was a suppressive person because she was trying to she didn't want to do be in Scientology anymore she was pulling Tom out of Scientology during the Eyes Wide Shut days plus Nicole's father's like a psychiatrist I believe that's like a huge oh my God that's like oh my God and so even though Nicole still had shared custody to the best of my understanding with Connor and Isabella the time that Conor and Isabella spent with Tom they were being conditioned brainwashed to believe what Scientology wanted them to believe about their mother and Katie would have seen firsthand how that affected Connor and Isabella's relationship with Nicole and I believe that Katie it's I don't have any insid track on this it's my personal opinion that she was like there's no way in hell I'm letting you do to sui what you did to Connor and Isabella and but the reason why I believe that Tom Cruz would have pretty willingly agreed to disappear is because of everything else that we've discussed about how Scientology delegitimate IES and de prioritizes familial relationships Siri isn't really Tom's daughter Su is just a being who's 67 tril 76 trillion years old and a small price to pay small price to pay a small price to pay yeah and it really is that disgusting I but I can tell you like Scientology would not have told Tom Cruz he had to disconnect from Siri absolutely he's too important to them he has all the leverage yeah he's got to know that that was Tom's decision it was Tom's call to make I should say it might cuz someone could say well was it Katie's decision Tom had to agree to it it was Tom's call to make and that's why he he would have convinced himself that that's why it was okay that's so it's just so mind-blowing to me I mean what do you think like if Tom Cruz suddenly like woke up and left Scientology that would be such a big loss that they'd just be dead yes he's that he's that much of a L pin he is that much of a Lynch pin how do we make this happen I know little CIA MK Ultra mind control let's go I know you know people ask me and I'm sure they you know ask jenet and other people all the time is there anything somebody could have said to you when you were in Scientology that would have made you reconsider things I go no because of the the nature of that Matrix story it'd be like Neo going back into the Matrix to do his little stunts and you know someone in The Matrix tries to convince him the Matrix is real you can't it's not possible it would be kind of like that like it's not possible to break through on that level when you think you're the one that's awake and everyone else is the one that's asleep but they're trying to convince you otherwise it's it's on some level it's not possible I say all this going if someone would have asked me 20 years ago would could Mike render ever leave Scientology i' be no way come on no that's not possible but he does now the difference is Mike Renda was treated so horribly like I said before a lot of people their waking up point is they're personally treated so horribly in a way that they didn't think would be possible that's never going to happen to Tom Cruz you know what I mean he's never going to be treated in that way the only I think I agree with you cuz he's like I mean let's be honest he's a mega star but like the only thing that makes me wonder if it's possible that some sort of bad treatment could happen is is Leah you know because like what they did to her calling her in to do all this [ __ ] but what got her into trouble she pissed off Tom Cruz that's right so you're saying it's still like a hide oh yes but what if he pissed off David miscavage if if David miscavage deteriorated personally to such a point that he could allow himself to like get pissed off and angry at Tom Cruz like that then yeah something something could happen but what I say when the reason I say if he could deteriorate is because for David mavic's own self-preservation he would he should never treat Tom in a way that would upset Tom to that level yeah or if he did immediately come back oh my God I'm so sorry I'm so sorry you know like th those two are a cute couple yeah well at least David doesn't have to get on his knees he's still short enough you know just he knew it was coming anyway I think David miscavage knows that if Tom Cruz left Scientology they'd be done I I mean I I think H if if Tom Cruz left Scientology I think half the scientologists walk out the door they go if it doesn't work for him it'll never work for us an actor well he's a mega star but still like that's he's one of the two biggest beings in this sector of the Galactic Federation watch your mouth okay put your manners in that's that's just wild to me I mean look yeah when when you can Market a name like that I I mean we've seen the videos that Mark bunker like they're [ __ ] priceless I mean those are some of the best things I've ever watched but like he has to feel it's very clear that that he despite the fact that in his life he's this Mega star who in that role alone should feel like Mega Power I guess but like he feels like a sense of like Godlike type power in this organization of 40,000 people and and it's not enough that he's like you know a Godlike person on screen so to speak in front of billions of people around around the world that dichotomy to me there's like some sort of egomania in him that's driving that because mathematically it makes no sense you're right you're totally right yeah I mean Tom Cruz has said as far as the responsibility for clearing this planet and achieving the aims of Scientology there's lron hubard there's coob and then there's me so like that is how he sees himself like where he sees um how he sees his importance and where he sees himself in the hierarchy of upon whose shoulders does the responsibility for salvaging this sector of the Galaxy rest well elron Hub ain't around anymore so it's Dave it's l Dave is little Captain Davey and L Tommy that's it and that's he believe he believes that when he says that and I think that has been been misinterpreted by some that he's actually like number two in the Church of Scientology or maybe he'll succeed David mavich and that will never happen that's not what Tom Cruz means when he says that what he's talking about is his responsibility that he bears for achieving the aims of Scientology he knows that he doesn't have to be a seor member to uh do the job that's required of him and so only a SE member would ever succeed David muscavage in taking control of Scientology but um but Tom Cruz sees himself as having more responsibility for moving Scientology forward than any other Scientologist in the world other than David mavage did you ever meet him when you were in I never met him never in the same room with him I Danny Masterson Trial wasn't I wonder what that would have been like like in that setting I mean the people that I know who have been around him have never said anything but excellent things about him but um like he he I mean it's part lesie lefts at that like it's part of his stick though to be like overly nice to people now if you're one of the people who actually works for him it's much different he's much like a David mavage yes I've heard he's like kind of Nast like he has all all the all his assistant onset or like scientologists yeah or whatever and he's like pretty nasty then well yeah and if he's upset with any of them they get to go in for an interrogation from a Scientology sex cheer imagine what it was like to be his girlfriend I mean imagine what what a pure hell Katie Holmes was living oh God how horrible do you have to be to be one of the most um recognizable famous people in the world you can't keep a girlfriend this guy can't find a girlfriend yeah I mean your life has to be it has to be so horrible in your inner circle that e meter is not working my gu I mean you're not in a relationship with Tom Cruz you're in a relationship with Tom Cruz and David muscavage you know imagine your best friend is a cult leader yeah yeah literally that's rough and you're the other leader I mean that's that's crazy but you on your Channel Growing Up in Scientology you cover all the current events with this stuff and it's really good coverage by the way because Cuts right through the noise you're on YouTube Every Day You're going through basically anything that's happening around the cult that is Scientology and one of the one of the earliest stuff I saw you cover was back as this whole Masterson thing was like unfolding I think there was like a mistrial first and they had another trial with all that that was after you were on Danny's show and I had Tony in here to talk about that because he was covering as well for his blog but you know the fact that Scientology was so almost like overtly involved in the in the legal defense that they made themselves a part of the case I thought that was a huge miscalculation because it also put them on trial no it I agree with you I in some ways the way they behave is like they can't it's like they can't help themselves yeah yeah it's a great way to put it um and one of the reasons I covered that second trial I think in the first trial I was probably just doing videos about whatever it is that Tony was writing on his blog but for the second trial I was in LA for every day of the trial because Scientology is so specific in its experience and I'm talking about like the terminology the language the procedures a former Scientologist just has can just from a conversation with the Janos hear what they went through explaining it the way a Scientologist would explain it and you go oh there's no question they're telling the truth like it's like the reason I covered it the way that I did is because I wasn't undecided on whether Danny did it I knew Dany did it uh the way Jane what Jane do went through the what Scientology put her through and how it she was subjected to these various procedures proved Scientology knew Danny did it there's certain way there's certain things Scientologist or former Scientologist would take away from the information that was shared that people that were never in Scientology would take away the fact that there was a civil settlement between Danny and Jan do one you go oh people settle things all the time just to put them to rest not in Scientology not in Scientology oh they don't they control you not doing that you're not allowed to sue a Scientologist you can get expelled you can get expelled also there is zero social benefit and I hesit I have to use the right language here because I'm let me know if you know what I'm what I if what I'm saying is clear in Scientology there is zero benefit to falsely accusing someone of any type of sexual assault MH you're not going to get attention you're not going to get headlines you're not going to get sympathy you are going to be subjected to rigorous interrogation it is not okay or acceptable to accuse people no one's going to rush there's no hashtag believe all survivors in Scientology it's the opposite of that yeah I mean if anything it's what did you do to pull it in what what it there's no sympathy ins I mean there is no with within the Scientology um social ecosystem there is nothing to gain and everything to lose by accusing any Scientologist much less a celebrity of sexual assaults so first of all you just have the fact like that's not a thing in Scientology to have false ACC it's just not a thing okay then you have the ethics officer jumps in and the sex Checkers jump in and the Auditors jump in and their job is to find out who's lying that is their job and they really want to know so so one of um they really do want to know if someone committed sexual assault they're not why hold on a second they're not going to report it to the police but they really do want to know but why do they let's play their game of [ __ ] up immorality why do they care about something like this which we all agree is horrible but these are the same people who tell you your own son is not your son or your own daughter is not really your daughter so you know what's a little sexual assault then I know there there is a lot of um contradictions and inconsistencies in what they seem to care about and what they seem to care about like why do they care if anyone's gay if we're not our bodies who cares why is Scientology so homophobic if we're all genderless Immortal Spiritual Beings who are only temporarily occupying a body it doesn't even make sense for them to care about whether someone's gay or not but they completely homophobic like but it doesn't make sense but but it is that way okay okay so on the on the on the sexual assault stuff it's not that they very singularly care about whether people commit sexual assault it's that they really care about finding out if you're doing bad things they're infatuated with it in fact no matter hold it over you yeah you're they're going to hold it over you they're going to you're going to have to make up the damage you're gonna have to do your lower conditions maybe you'll make a big donation here do a big thing here they really are infatuated with controlling Behavior oh it's all just controlling money and so no matter what they find out you've done they're never going to report it to the authorities but they are going to get to the bottom of it and they are going to make you pay in their own internal way the fact that they even allowed Dany to do a civil Financial settlement with Jane do1 is evidence Scientology verified he actually did this the settlement was done just to make jano1 legally to make her go you would believe it and I'm not saying you did I definitely think he did it but you would believe their system to getting to the bottom of finding out if he actually did it cuz it it you know it's kind of they're very good at that they are yes it the eer doesn't the eem meter is full of [ __ ] um Scientology auditing does not give you the gains that they promise it's going to give you but they are very good at getting to the bottom of things because scientologists at least believe that the e- meter the eer uh reads indicates things that it it's even more aware of you than you are a VI so if I'm the auditor and I'm trying to get to the bottom of something you did and I ask you a question and you're like well I I don't have an answer I'd be like well take a look there yeah and what's that what is that now you know I'm using the e- meter I don't have to sit here and go I'm using the needle of the eer to indicate where I want you to look but you know CU you know how auditing works that's right I'm go what what's that what is that what is that what is that right there right there what are you not telling me what is it what what is it and eventually you did did you can I can I be really vulgar in this I don't want to like oh of course be like did you did you murder a baby did you kill someone did you uh did you did you uh have a hit and run you know did you did you rap a child like it's called the murder routine if you're doing an interrogation you accuse them of things so much worse than what you're hoping they'll admit to that they're like oh Jesus God I didn't do that okay yeah okay so so so yeah so so so she was unconscious and I had sex with her I don't think it was right though like that's kind of how an auditing session might go it's literally an interrogation and Scientology is very good at it so for should hire them [ __ ] I know for them to even allow Dany to enter into a civil civil settlement with Jane do one means the Scientology authorities David mavage already determined he did this we need to put this to rest now remind me of the timeline here because the accusations came out publicly in I believe 2017 the first trial I want to say was like 2022 the next one was in 2024 was that pretty that was pretty recent right um no the trial was 20 23 so he's been in jail for like a year yeah some okay so the accusations though were from the early 2000s right janeo 1 and Jane do 3 came forward to the Scientology authorities at the time it happened yeah so okay that was what I was going to ask so they came forward at the time meaning these invest these internal investigations had happened a decade and a half before this even came to public light which means this entire time that he's a Scientologist and they're propping him up and all this they know he did this that's right and there was a very specific meeting that um see see I've already had I've had private conversations and then I also sat in on the trial and sometimes I can't remember which information what information came from which in other words uh not everything is allowed to be presented to the jury on the stand right right here's what I'm talking about there was a meeting that occurred um with Jane do1 Danny Masterson alfredy Johnson who's a public Scientologist um and some people from the office of special Affairs it was almost like a summit it was supposed to be where Dany was supposed to come in and he was supposed to apologize to jan1 and this was being organized because jano1 was like all I want like if he would just apologize and the fact that the scient that the office of special Affairs even attempted to facilitate something like this is proof to anyone in Scientology that the office of special Affairs determined that Danny Masterson committed this and they were just trying to smooth it over so that it didn't go legal and it didn't become a big flap and a big bad bad PR for Scientology and what happened is Danny Masterson came into that that meeting and he couldn't just be sincere he was cracking jokes he was laughing he was insulting and it was actually one of the scientologists who called an end to the meeting said that's enough that we're not this is too much get out of here wow Why did Mila Kunis and Ashton Kutcher Defended Danny Masterson & Psychological Breakdown and what's crazy about how the whole Danny Masterson thing ended up rolling out and him getting convicted and in prison is that at any step of the way the scientologists involved were willing to settle it internally if it was just handled correctly to their satisfaction and this is what I mean when I say Scientology over and over again turns its own members against it by just refusing to treat people with Humanity that's the fact that that you know someone all they could want in a situation which is like one of the worst things that happen to somebody to be assaulted like that and and all they're asking for is just someone to show Contrition for it in a private setting like that's their bar and he can't even do that that's a [ __ ] up in I mean he's [ __ ] up for doing these things in the first place but that is an extra [ __ ] up individual that is someone I don't know that there's I I don't know how you can come back as a person it's true and um and and it's especially true that he is a uniquely screwed up individual it's not it's not just oh he knew Scientology would protect him so he was Scientologist this guy non scientologists this guy people in multiple States in multiple countries and multiple decades this this guy is is a danger to society it wasn't just Scientology it wasn't just the protection he had as a Scientology celebrity he ried non- scientologists yeah why why do you think people like I mean we saw the famous I think it was like a letter from Ashton Kutcher and mun is like what why why do you think people like that defended him even even after he finally got found guilty well the number one reason is they didn't think anybody were going to find out about it yeah good luck with that that they truly did not know those letters were going to be admitted into the record and would be available to the public who the [ __ ] is their lawyer I know right like all that money lack of brain they didn't have a lawyer in this it was actually Danny's Mom Carol who came to them personally and asked them to do the letter I mean how pissed how pissed is Ashton now you know oh my god wow um but there was also a a photo that came out a few weeks ago of Ashton and milela with one of Danny's Brothers he's the one that looks the least like oh what's oh I forget all the brothers names um but but but Ashton is still close with the family you know that's crazy yeah yeah I that that would be a line for me like like if a friend of mine committed that they're just they're not my friend anymore I know this is not very hard and a Ashton knew Jano 3 H how it's one it's even worse it's one thing if it's I mean I don't know if you realize this it it's at least eight victims that have come forward he was only charged with three he was only convicted for two yeah but there were victims who were allowed to testify at the trial about Danny raping them even though he they he wasn't being charged with those rap they were called past bad acts Witnesses was that because of the statute of limitations on their claims that they weren't charges officially yeah oh yeah well the prosecutor it could have been a number of reasons but yes the statute of limitations is one of them one of the victims was in Canada the occurred in Canada at a rap party for a for a film and she didn't even know who Danny Masterson was or that he was an actor it was when she sat down and watched the movie Dracula 2000 then she said that's the guy who me oh my God she didn't know he was an actor she didn't know he was a Scientologist so like all the conspiracy theories that Scientology has has tried to spin like Leah Remy orchestrated all of these women to make these complaints or former scientologists are out to get Danny masteron Katherine Katherine Jenkins wasn't a Scientologist she didn't even know who Danny masteron was she didn't know what Scientology was and um yeah so the guy is the guy is really sick and that's it do I remember this correctly I don't want to don't want to over empathize with someone like that but he was born into it right yes so I wonder I wonder if part of the the power that also getting the career he ended up having you know that kind of like you have this this feeling of invulnerability and man of Steal I can do whatever I want to whoever I want however I want because that's how it's been told I can do it my whole life now you grew up in it and you're not running around here committing acts like that but then he gets like a publicly powerful type position too and it it's like you're almost drunk on that and you feel like like I I genuinely wonder if when he did these things if if if his brain was even functional enough from a moral standpoint to realize what he was doing A and B that it was this was like the worst thing you could do is he was drugging the women so it's and it's like that's where you get to it's it's obviously like premeditated but like you see some of these guys they don't their brain doesn't function like ours and they're like oh yeah this is fine what was Bill Cosby L like oh just go sleep a little bit it's a great comparison if your brain is wired a certain way are they even truly aware I mean look I think they are aware but but also but they're W like are they thinking about the seriousness of what they're doing the same way we think about the seriousness of what they're doing one little anecdote comes to mind there's a clip that floating around of Danny Masterson on Conan O'Brien it's just the weirdest thing I've seen this and he goes hey my friend bod um Jenna Jenna elfman's um husband bod Elfman uh bod likes to do an impression of me hey my name's Danny Masterson do you want to touch my balls it's like wait what made you think that was going to go over well on national TV that your friend impersonating you is asking people to touch your balls yeah like he didn't have the self-awareness to go like the crowd did not laugh yeah like the crowd was like it was like so like that nervous like he just said and and Conan was like oh so your friend uh like everyone was like why did you just do that there was no reason that was an unforced error there was no reason for you to say that and you go oh so like I don't know so what's going on in Danny's head where you're like people are going to think this is funny you know I don't know yeah [ __ ] up guy and and you know I I I mentioned it earlier too but like I think I'm True Story of Shelly Miscavige going to ask this to every Scientologist P related person who comes in here but like what the [ __ ] is up with Shelly like what what is the deal here like what's what's your take on this I love talking about Shelly MC okay please you have the floor where to even begin so the thing is first of all the same people who will tell you that Shel is missing will also tell you exactly where she's working so can we Define missing I I think I've got a different take on this than than you might have expected um Shelley mavage is a seor member she has for decades worked at the highest levels of Scientology management um shell being missing we go what does that actually mean all of the executives who work at these bases could be described as missing nobody would recognize them or pick them out of the lineup or seen them they don't talk to their families they don't visit their families like that's true for all of them so Shel mavich um was never one of these Executives who like addressed the Scientology public from stage at an event I was in Scientology for 30 years I might have laid eyes on her once and I only knew who she was cuz someone told me who she was she was David mavic's assistant in the seaorg and his wife right but the only reason anyone ever knew who she was outside of the secret base where she worked was because she was his assistant not because she was his wife in the seaorg being married means nothing it's not like if you're the president of the United States you go to events the first lady's always with you yeah that is not how the seaorg works you would never travel with your spouse for business for seor never ever ever travel with your spouse just because you'd have to literally be assigned to be working with them to travel with your spouse okay so the only reason Leah Remy ever came to know who shell was is because Shel was Dave's assistant and Leah Remy as a celebrity would hobnob with the executives at the major events some of the evidence of what I'm saying is that Shelley and Leah corresponded via letter oh old school I I promise you they had cell phones um friends don't communicate via letter yeah okay so um I'm being really long-winded about this uh I know that Tony already told you the story of around 2005 when David Mavish got pissed off and and he removed Shel from her post and reassigned her to another base yeah there's literally no reason for anyone to ever see Charlie muscavage ever again but after that point now I will say something this gets a little spicy here okay when when Tony says why can't she talk to her family how does Tony know what family shelle's talking to or not talking to I'll tell you how because some of those family members have spoken to Tony and Tony published some things only those family members could have said that's the last time Shelley mavage would ever have speak to those family members how does anyone know which one of Shel miscavage family members she's talking to my point is nobody would ever know because any of her family members who would ever speak to the Press about her is a family member she would never speak to again how are you sure of that oh well she can give you your opinions about it tomorrow maybe okay all right because it's good enough for me you cannot speak to people if you who work in such sensitive high level confidential um positions like that in Scientology you cannot speak to people who are speaking to the Press about you that's like a a huge uh viol a of um I want to say confidentiality but um security of seor security rules did she but but here's my point my point is for someone to say shelle mavich isn't speaking to her family members implies that they're in touch with her family members and those family members are talking to them about shelle mavage I understand yeah that's not how that works now here I guess wrong shelle mavage to the best of anyone's knowledge is alive and well and working at the CST base in Twin Peaks California she did have a voter registration and a driver's license update in oh what is the name of that of that um well the CST base in Northern California humble California humble California is that where it was noral yeah okay so um I have my own inside sources who say even though Shelley mavage had her driver's license updated there she is not working at that base she is still working at the at the Twin Peaks Crestline base um so is that like a diversion area tactic yes okay yeah and uh the police did make contact with her a number of years ago and then you heard the story about the fingerprint that didn't quite match up and everything the point is this instead of saying what's the evidence she's still alive you go what's the evidence that she's dead and you go well because no one's seen from her I go who's no one no no no Scientologist would even recognize Shelley mavage she could be on the front cover of a Scientology magazine no Scientologist would know that's Shelly mavage and also there have been people who've seen Shelley mavage Mitch brisker is a guy who left Scientology recently he ran into her at a Chipotle a number of miles outside of the crest line and literally had a conversation with her that was a handful of years ago so um and I guess what I'm really trying to say here is the Shelly miscavage experience is unique and interesting yes because she's David mavic's wife I love talking about it I'm not saying people shouldn't talk about it the fact that he was so upset with his wife who'd been working directly with him for so many years that he literally had to remove her from her post and send her somewhere else and and presumably never see her again who really knows is evidence that Scientology doesn't work that's what I take away from it that's why I like talking about Shelly mavage yeah because it is a failure of David mavage to be able to use Scientology to help his marriage just like Tom Cruz his three failed marriages are examples of him not being able to use Scientology to have a successful marriage um talking about shell being missing is sexy and it's fun and I like doing it I just like doing it for a specific reason and I do it in a specific way there's no reason to think that she is um um uh they against her will because here's something that I didn't actually come up in your last chat shell Miss elron hubard was practically Shelly miscavage is second father shelle mavage went to work in the seor when she was like was it 12 years old when at least when she was nine yeah Shel mavage has been working directly for elron hubard from like the age like around there how what's the age difference between her and David aren't they about the same age they're about the same okay Shelley mavich was in the has been in the SE for longer than David mavich Shelley mavich worked with elron hubard more closely than David mavich ever did she he was literally the messenger boy though for him no he was in the commodor messenger org he never stood uh a watch the messenger has different meanings over different times in the beginning they were literally people who stood watch outside of elron hub's door and ran messages for him those were called watch Messengers okay those were the original Messengers David mavich was never one of those later um there was a whole organization that was called The commodor Messengers organization he was in that organization she was in that organization but those that being a messenger had a different meaning later on mavich never worked never worked as closely with elron hubard as Shelly did okay and so my point there is shelle mavich is a True Believer in Scientology she's a True Believer in The Matrix story that that we've discussed she's a True Believer that elron Hubbert is supposed to come back there's it's actually kind of insulting to think it's actually kind of insulting to Shelly to think that just because her husband got mad at her and took her off of her post and reassigned her to another base that she's no longer a believer in Scientology and secretly wants to leave and is now being held against her will it's actually in a Scientology perspective kind of insulting to Shelly that was like oh so you you were only there because you could be Dave's assistant and fly around the world with him but but now that you can't you don't want to be there anymore that's actually not it's also not true it's not true that just because she was taken off of her post she now no longer wants to be a seaorg member chances are and this is where it's ironic even even Leah reminy in her own TV show about Shelley mavich the episode at the end said Mike explained this to her and then she goes you're right she would feel an obligation and a duty to elron Hubbert to be there when he comes back of course she wants to be there and I go well can we stop saying that she's missing or can we at least be honest about what we mean when we say that that's all I just want that's a mind [ __ ] it is a mind [ __ ] now you could go well she's a victim well then then then all scientologists are victims the only thing that makes shelle extra special and interesting is that she's David mavic's wife but it doesn't make her life any worse or different than all of the other SE members who work on these bases that's all I just like to be very clear about why I talk about it the same people who will say that she's missing will take a camera crew and show you where she works so can we at least be clear about what we mean when we say she's missing yeah I mean at the at the same time though like the fact that she's that deep given that her own husband has like abandoned her banished her off but she was that brainwash from a child being around elron hubard that she's still like about this and talking to people in Chipotle about it like it's crazy it is crazy my God but it's all crazy it's all crazy man and there's another thing about the Shelly conversation is like not exactly an angel not exactly well I I mean she worked side by side hand in hand connected at the hip with the guy who we are describing as like a monstrous psychopath yeah and we just think she had nothing to do with it do you see what I mean yeah so that that's kind of what I mean sure we're going to get into this tomorrow we're talking about your aunt right here effectively which is wild yeah now what I never work with David mavage I never work with Shelley miscavage but those who did will tell you yes she was definitely a Kinder gentler person than David mavage well that's not that's not hard to do I know the bar is pretty low yeah but right literally and Future of Scientology & Finding Aaron figurative and ex are we ignore all of that yeah oh poor Shelly no one's seen her shut the [ __ ] up who's no one and yes people have seen her and scientologists don't even know who she is she hasn't been on post for almost 20 years yeah she's been on a post she's not just been she just hasn't been on the post where she gets to travel everywhere David mavage goes no matter where and so that is in my opinion the story of Shelley mavage it's very interesting and it is worth talking about um but for slightly different reasons reality check in a way yeah yeah I I understand that completely I I that it's it's fascinating because like you said because of who she is and and who she's around but unfortunately these kinds of things not necessarily like being banished to this one place or whatever but there are so many people within Scientology who then get as you've laid out today in plenty of examples get sucked into the life and then they just kind of accept the Fate that it gives them and I can't imagine having my mind so [ __ ] up that I get to that point where I've just accepted that and said well I guess this is reality but it's it's it's so many and you know now you're trying to at least help some people who have maybe been stuck in it for a long time to get them out but you know we're we're we're coming up on the end here and and I I think a really really good question to close with would be do you think you are going to live to see a day where Scientology is completely gone no not completely gone I think I will live to see a day where they've lose their tax exemp status that'd be great yeah that's good enough for me and honestly even if they don't lose it just helping people leave Scientology and just being David mage's worst nightmare or trying to be that's good enough for me oh you're doing a great job and that's and it's awesome that you're it's like kind of like you're paying it forward too you know using your own experiences to help those who you can fully empathize with what they're going through it's an amazing thing man thank you but your story is incredible your channel is awesome we're going to have the link in the description I highly encourage everyone to check it out also to follow you on Twitter I know know you're active on there X as well so it is we we call it X now right I call it Twitter I won't call yeah I still call it Twitter but like it's X or I don't even know how you say it but I want to make sure people get you there so we'll have that link in the description as well thank you so much for sharing all this today it's it's it's heavy stuff but you do a great job telling it and you know we're going to get another really really good one tomorrow I'm looking forward to that with you Jenna so we'll do that thanks sh all right we'll do it some other time too again absolutely everybody else you know what it is give it a thought get back to me peace thank you guys for watching the episode before you leave please be sure to hit that subscribe button and smash that like button on the video it's a huge help and also if you're over on Instagram be sure to follow the show at Julian Dory podcast or also on my personal page at Julian D Dory both links are in the description below finally if you'd like to catch up on our latest episodes use the Julian Dory podcast playlist Link in the description below thank you to the YouTube reviewers reviewing this episode this is strictly an educational conversation with a former member of Scientology Aaron Smith Levin who is discussing his experiences within there we do not show any violence or sensitive events of any kind on the screen and we have taken full precautions to make sure this video is within accordance of the community guidelines on YouTube so that it could be fully monetized thank you for reviewing the video and I hope you enjoyed