Chimp Crazy discussion Episode 3: Head Shot - North American Primate Sanctuary Alliance & ChimpsNW

well thank you everyone for joining us today it's great to have so many people here it's nice to see that it's well attended again it's been really wonderful to have uh these discussion groups for chimp crazy so my name is Andy Gray I'm the director of the North American Primate Sanctuary Alliance uh napsa is a coalition of eight of the leading primate sanctuaries in North America and again I just want to thank you all for being here with us today to unpack episode three of chimp crazy it was a difficult episode to watch um as I'm talking I'm going to change my screen make sure it's um it was it was a very difficult episode to watch um you know as evidenced by the title of the episode headshot um but I'm really grateful that we are able to have these these discussions it's been a really nice sense of community and you know a place to kind of process everything that we are seeing and napsa sanctuaries as well as you know other reputable primate sanctuaries see the rep reprecussions of um primates used as pets and entertainment daily and so the things we're seeing in this documentary series hit very close to home and um I'm excited to talk more tonight and unpack these episodes and talk about how we can create a better world for primates I'm very excited that we have such a special guest today um who will introduce herself shortly but first I'm going to hand it off to Diana to introduce herself thank you Andy so my name is Diana G and I'm the co-director with at chimpanzee Sanctuary Northwest and we are the smaller sanctuaries we're in um the central part of Washington state and we currently care for 15 chimpanzees um and these issues have been uh close to my heart for a very long time even before I started working at the sanctuary so um I'm very excited that Britney kind of cheerleaded us all into watching this because I'm not sure I would have done it without her um encouraging us um I think it's been really useful to see how they're bringing the issues up and just to be able to answer people's questions because I know there are a lot of people who are watching it who have questions and you know we had some interesting discussions about that at the at the last discussion so really appreciate you all joining us and part participating um and I will hand it over to Britney hi everyone and thanks so much to napsa for having me um I'm Britney Pete I'm a general Council for captive animal law enforcement with the Peta Foundation um our division oversees peta's work on behalf of captive wildlife in the United States um which means that I worked on tonka's case and um Buck case um and um was uh part of or am part of chimp crazy so um yeah this was this was a really tough episode but I I really wanted to be here tonight to talk about this one because I um uh Buck story really means a lot to me and um and there's a lot that wasn't covered in this story so um I'm looking forward to commiserating with um with other folks who who watched and talking and and also just answering any questions that you all um may have after watching the first three episodes thank you Britney yeah it's really great to have you here for this episode in particular because of your involvement and it's been really wonderful to see you throughout these episodes you know and you've done such a great thought job talking about you know the lives that these these chimps deserve so um with that we can get into it so first I want to um go over some Zoom stuff Diana do you happen to have those um links that you shared last time in the chat do you think you could share those again um if you have them handy yeah I think I can find them I'll do that great sorry I meant to ask you about that beforehand thank you um so just uh to let you know about the flow of the evening first we're going to go over some Zoom things some tips and uh meeting rules uh we'll give a recap of the episode and then we will have a few polls and um some discussion questions and free discussion and I apologize my arrow thing is not working every time I hit it um all right so uh as you have probably noticed this meeting is being recorded um so just something important to keep in mind as we're all talking and commiserating just be aware that um this is recorded and it will be shared uh publicly so um just important for everyone to know you can turn on subtitles by clicking CC in the meeting controls we would love it if you properly identify yourself for an open conversation so you can actually click participant and meeting controls and locate your name and click more to choose rename and also uh in our first discussion a lot of folks just entered in the chat um what you know what their affiliation is so if you're from a sanctuary or an advocacy organization or um you know you're a student something like that please feel free to let us know in the chat as well we'd love to hear where everyone is joining us from um there we go so um you know we have some some rules but every time we've done this so far we really haven't had to be very um strict about this so um you know you can certainly we we do ask you remain muted especially if there's noise in your background um but if you would like to speak you can either raise your hand or you can like physically raise your hand so we can see or just turn on your camera we really encourage you all to be on camera if you would like to of course you can just um observe and listen if you would like but we'd love for you to get on camera when you're talking when you're in when you're asking questions um that would be great you can also of course use the chat um for questions reactions comments um anything you would like and we would like to ask that everyone be respectful um and let you know that if anyone is you know disruptive we will um remove people I don't think that will happen but um just you know kind of the ground rules of our discussion and oops sorry going ahead so I saw that Diana added those links thank you very much Diana a couple of more tips on Zoom if you um uh to if you want to see more than one speaker you could there's different views that you can see in Zoom so you can click view in the upper right corner and select gallery view and you can see everyone that way um you can raise your hand if you want to be called on but again um you can of course uh you know just un turn on your camera and unmute yourself as well if you would like um um and we will do our best to monitor the chat for questions and we'll answer them as they come up if you would rather type them uh than get on camera all right so with that we have episode three titled head shot um and I wanted to kind of start us off um with something happy we did this last time um just as a nice um you know reminder that um there are happy endings for some of these chimps as well so these are the Ohio 4 they are you see them in in this episode um and we'll get into that a little bit as I go through the recap in just a moment but um these are the chimps at the um facility Union Ridge Wildlife Center um the person sigh that you see Tanya interacting with and who was also interviewed was holding these chimps and I'm sure Britney will um will be speaking a little bit more about this shortly but uh just wanted to share um share this because uh it's wonderful that these chimps are now at Save The Chimps and they're living in large family groups on big beautiful islands so a nice reminder as we go through that um although this had some really heavy content and some of it was really hard to watch um there's also some some really good things that came out of of these cases all right so to start with a recap of the episode um the episode starts with body cam footage of Buck's death um and you know the police coming after Buck um attacked uh Tam Tamara Brat's daughter um which you kind of learn as the episode goes on and it kind of sets things up in the beginning um for this to be inter intertwined with tonka's story you then see Tanya admitting and going actually into great detail with the documentary crew about how she took TKA um how she how she got him out and what she did from there and then you see um Eric good and the crew debating how they're going to handle this new information from there we learn more about Sai Sai um actually is is it VRA I hope that's how you pronounce it um I always just hear his first name usually Sai um and the union Ridge Wildlife Center um and you see Tonka there you learn that Tonka was there for about six months um and then you know it goes into Tanya some very interesting history on Tanya being a foster mom starting at a very young age um including for some special needs kids and we see her son explain how she became a monkey mom from there and how she kind of had this need to be needed we also learn um about the $20,000 reward offered by Peta and alen cummings for information on Tonka and then we see a lot more on Buck's death um and we see a lot of parallels there to the case of Travis which we saw in episode two and Tonka um and we see towards the end the documentary crew records a call of Tanya saying that he will be euthanized finally at long last um Eric good does go to Peta for help so um we can dive into the discussion and we wanted to start start by um speaking or having uh Britney speak a little bit um about Buck's case uh and about the you know the union Ridge Wildlife Center Peta was involved in that even though it didn't air in the episode uh the details of that and the result of that and also um if you wanted to give uh any additional information that might be helpful on tonka's case up to this point in in the series so with that I'll hand it off to Britney okay um yeah we'll we'll start with with Buck's case because that's the the first bullet um so a couple of interesting things that we've come across in the in the research um throughout our work relating to Buck um and this is kind of an overarching theme that chimp crazy doesn't really get into um but one of the questions that some of you all who work in zoos or sanctuaries might be asking yourselves um is where are the legal and Regulatory authorities in all this um and that would be a very good question um because it shouldn't have to fall to to Peta to enforce these laws we actually have legal and Regulatory Agencies who are supposed to be doing this um so Tamara batti actually first applied for a permit um to acquire a chimpanzee back in 2004 um she already had Buck at that point he was an infant whom she acquired at 21 days old and um in the experience section of the permit application um the the experience that she listed for having worked with chimpanzees was having worked in a a lab um as a janitor and then as um someone who was authorized to feed chimpanzees for a time and she disclosed in the application that she was actually suspended for several months for breaking protocol um and having one of her teeth knocked out by a chimpanzee and then the other experience that she listed was having worked at a zoo in Ohio for six months but she didn't specify which zoo she didn't specify what her job supposedly was at this facility and the Oregon Department Department of Agriculture determined that that was sufficient experience for her to have a chimpanzee in her home um another thing that we discovered when we were going through the records is that for many years Tamara was trying to acquire a second chimpanzee a female um presumably to breed she did after um after the Travis incident she did have Buck castrated so breeding wasn't going to be uh an issue at that point um but how Peta got involved was we were we were taking a closer look at Buck's case and taking a look through the records and all of the information that was available online and we found a number of issues with um with t with Tamara's um permit and some of those issues included the fact that Under Oregon law um if you have a chimpanzee um which is prohibited Under Oregon law but Buck was grandfathered in um you know you have they have to be contained in a secure enclosure um but Buck was not only allowed to roam freely in her home uh a lot of times he was allowed to roam freely Outdoors she did have him on a leash sometimes um and she also had him on a shock collar once he got a little bit older um but that was something that was clearly not allowed and she was clearly doing it because she was posting about it on Facebook and we saw an email exchange in the records where Tamara claimed that Oregon authorities knew about it and they just asked her to stop posting about it um we also found that the veterinarian that she had listed on her permit um was actually Missouri primate foundation's veterinarian but he was someone who was in Missouri not in Oregon he wasn't licensed in Oregon and obviously if there was some sort of Veterinary Emergency there was no way for him to be able to provide care to Buck and so we we drafted up a detailed complaint with all of the issues in the permit again that the Oregon Department of Agriculture easily could have found if they' done even basic due diligence looking into this permit permit instead of rubber stamping it year after year uh we submitted a complaint um Oregon Department of Agriculture um did investigate um they issued Tamara a notice of violation and four days later Buck was dead um so that was really difficult and it was so interesting because Tamara called me a couple of times throughout the investigation and as you saw in the series she did invite me to come out and visit um obviously that was complicated I wanted to keep conversations going with her so that we could try to come to some sort of um come up with some sort of plan to get Buck to a sanctuary um but I obviously wasn't going to go to her house and endanger myself and endanger Buck by um freely interacting with buck as as Tamara did and so um uh Jamie I think her name was the woman in the series said that that Tamara ghosted us well that's just that's just not true um I just obviously wasn't going to go out under those circumstances so we were still working that out um but she was in those first conversations when we spoke on the phone extremely erratic she would be sobbing and screaming but then as you heard on the 911 call in episode three she was perfectly calm and when I called her that day after Buck was killed um and she was in the hospital with her daughter and I called her to ask about what happened and she didn't she wouldn't talk to me for very long she just confirmed that buck had died and and told me that it was my fault and again it was completely different than those initial conversations she was completely calm um so so that was that was strange um happy to answer any questions about buck when we get to that point but those are you kind of my initial thoughts about that um on Union Ridge Wildlife Center um that's such a a strange and bizarre piece of the story we did actually go and look for Tonka at the union Ridge Wildlife Center but we just missed him by a couple of weeks um he left he was we know that he was back in Missouri by early January Ary um because that that's when that court hearing the zoom court hearing that we saw at the end of episode two took place and of course we know that Tonka was in um Tanya's basement at that point um and we were at Union Ridge Wildlife Center in late January so um so when the news broke that we had found Tonka this was before he'd been removed from Tanya's home I actually s actually reached out to us um and and asked uh us to place Tonka with him he invited us to come out and look at his facilities and said that he had state-of-the-art Veterinary facilities things that of course he he did not have um and and so that was that was kind of interesting I think he reached out to a couple of other people too um and he had a friend of his who is kind of in or adjacent to the Animal Welfare movement and I won't name that person here um but he reached out to me and I think another person on this call as well to try to advocate for saigh and when he did that he also sent me a photo of Tonka when he was at Union Ridge Wildlife Center and so we were able to use that photo um to we were able to get the metadata from that photo to determine the date um that the photo was taken and it was really early uh in Tonka State at Union Ridge Wildlife Center maybe the first day he was there so that was really helpful for us in nailing down the timeline um and so we determined after we found out where Tonka was we learned that um that he had been at size for a time because Sai told us that um which ended up being very helpful to us because we determined that Sai and Tanya had illegally imported Tonka both into and out of the state they didn't um obtain the legally required health certificates that they needed to transport Tonka interstate and Ohio also has a strict permit requirement for Dangerous wild animals and Ohio is also one of the few states that actually enforces its exotic animal laws so we submitted a complaint to Ohio authorities about tonka's illegal importation and as awful as tonka's ordeal was we ended up being able to to kind of make lemonade out of lemons in this situation because that complaint led to an investigation that resulted in Union Ridge Wildlife Center's dangerous wild animal permit being revoked and their two tigers for chimpanzees two snow Macks and two spider monkeys being confiscated and placed at wonderful sanctuaries um like the the Ohio four who who are living at Save The Chimps now and so that was a really wonderful outcome um and sa is also in prison now um for the next several years in relation to uh the um embezzlement scheme that was discussed in the series um tonka's case up to this point I think let's just get to that get to that the questions um there's been so much about tonka's story so far in the series and I'm just interested to know what everyone else is curious about absolutely I am actually gonna stop sharing my screen um Diana do you want to start us off by um putting a couple of our poll questions um in and we can kick it off that way yeah and while I'm doing this cuz it's going to take me a minute um I was curious Britney why you think the regulatory agencies are so uh hesitant or don't care or whatever it is why aren't they enforcing laws that exist now I don't know I I wish I knew um but but I don't it's it's and it's it's across the board it's the USDA it's the state agencies or I should say almost across the board because like I said Ohio is one of the states that they not only enforce their laws but they um they actually um are serious about placing animals at reputable facilities instead of just whoever will take them was that was it in Ohio was the law um increased because of that big case of all the exotic animals yeah yeah and you know it shouldn't take something like that for for laws to change um but it took Tiger King to get the big cat Public Safety Act passed and and hopefully it will take chimp crazy to get the captive primate safety act passed um but we'll see and and and hopefully we will see the the USDA and the US fish and wildlife service doing some enforcement in relation to chimpanzees because of the the momentum of chimp crazy as well it's it is uh very overdue so it looks like um Diana did you launch the union R Wildlife question so this this is a question that that I had um I actually the reason I wanted to ask the group about this is because we have some family in town right now and uh you know we watch the episode together and um you know they this they've um they've been out to Save The Chimps before they've been to other sanctuaries before um and their Animal Welfare Advocates um but they um you know they don't have as much you know knowledge about like chimps for example as I do because of of my background and as we were watching and Sai was talking about oh you know we're expanding and we take in these animals from Bad situations and you know we're going to build the state-of-the-art facility that can have 24 temps you know I said something off you know I made a comment about it not being a good place and they were like oh is this not is this not a good um sanctuary and that got me wondering if other people might have not known when they watched um and I know kind of it's it's sort of interesting to me because you know the the producers and of the show talk about wanting people to make up their own minds um but I don't know if they always provide enough context for people to make up their own minds so this this this is why this question came up for me so I was I was curious what other people think well and I think it's interesting too when you think about when you contrast chimp crazy with Tiger King and you think about the way that Big Cat Rescue was portrayed in that series and it's kind of the opposite portrayal instead of showing the actual enclosure enclosures that cats were held in in Big Cat Rescue they showed the lockout where the animals ate and portrayed that as the way that the animals were find there and so everyone you know took that as as thinking that the animals were in a roadside zoo and it's it it's kind of a little bit opposite with sigh yeah yeah it is and you know there's some of the missing context I think as well is you know they don't talk about whether this place is accredited or um where they're really getting their animals um I mean some of them may have been from Bad situations others may not have been um so yeah definitely curious to hear what other people think as well so I just ended the poll so I think you should be able to you the results potentially can you see the results there me or everyone everyone I I can't but let me let's see I just tried to do it too I hope I didn't well I can read some of them off so um somebody said that a friend that watched it C felt that he s came off as a collector and not a sanctuary um I actually asked my friends who I watched it with and after Andy you and I talked about your inlaw reactions and um yeah my friend too was like well you know from the footage I it looked okay it you know it looked like decent enclosures um so that was interesting I hadn't even considered that um yeah somebody says it seems like it could be legit to someone who's unfamiliar with true sanctuaries this is a good point I don't know how the chimp CD McDonald's could have added to their level of legitimacy um someone I spoke to thought that it was fine since he had plans for large housing so that's kind of interesting mhm um and yeah somebody said no and I wish they really would have done a comparison with the true sanctuary and actually showed why his wasn't yeah and without context it was difficult um I think though for me when they got to the the part of him digging up the chimp and uh cremating him and sharing the ashes with Tanya that was kind of it for me um that was really bizarre but and laughing yeah about it like describing how decomposed the chimp's body was and yeah yeah you know I turned to my family I said I think that would have been the worst day of my life if I had if I had done like they were so nonchalant yeah and also I mean it's just kind of weird that they chose to do that like I guess they thought maybe Britney you and Peta were gonna analyze the Ashes to see if there was DNA of chimpanzees in there or something um yeah it was it was a strange Choice the other part well I think she was hoping that we would yeah because what was it gonna show it was gonna show well we and and that that is something that we looked into because she claimed that she had ashes um and and so we did we did ask around and we determined that that no you cannot retrieve DNA for ashes or from ashes they're there needs to be bone and and Tanya represented to us that there was no bone it was only Ash and so we determined that that we it wouldn't be possible to to test the ashes but I think that she she didn't realize that and I think that she was hoping that we would test the ashes ashes find it was find out it was a male chimpanzee and and then just move on and and leave her alone um but you know we wouldn't have trusted that anyway because we knew that she was close with Connie Casey and Connie Casey certainly has um has access to to plenty of Ashes from from other male chimpanzees yeah it's a good point yeah and um CCE in the comments I God I had even forgotten this or blocked it out of my head that Sai had cut the chimp's head off to Save The Skull like definitely not a true Sanctuary behavior um there's an interesting comment going back a little bit from chral saying I mean the purpose of the USDA is to promote and expand markets for food producers it's crazy they ulate zoos and these exotic animal facilities maybe we can advocate for them to separate and create a new regulatory agency I know it's a big ask but I wondered that myself I know people who visit our Sanctuary ask us what you know what kind of regulations we have to abide by and there's really not much and it's a shame there should be so much more people looking after what we're doing um and all of our accreditation is on a voluntary basis and so we we don't have to have it if we don't want want to and it's shocking that we can keep chimps in you know even if it's a nonprofit um and not have somebody making sure that we're doing it in a correct manner I see another oh sorry go ahead go ahead I just wonder if there's um if there's any possibility of future regulations that would be outside the USDA or because I know the USDA also has so many like this comment was suggesting so many other facilities that they have to inspect and they're short stuffed and you know there's probably not well funded um so it's really not the best even if they were working you know doing even if they were trying to uphold the very minimum standards that exist I I will say I I can jump in on that and and say that that a lot of us would really like to see Animal Welfare act outside of the the USDA and um there's been a a somewhat clandestine effort on on the part of a number of organizations to look at the feasibility of that um and unfortunately it just isn't feasible in in our political time even remotely um you know and so we're just back to heaping the pressure on and and taking advantage of um situations like these whenever we can can to highlight the um the issues with enforcement and and try to push the agency to do better and push lawmakers to push them to do better yeah I see another comment that I wanted to uh read um in the chat from Peter at Oakland Zoo um I also worried about how viewers might view Sanctuary given Tanya's son's comments about Tanya being about Tonka sorry being injured at SI place and suggesting that this is what would happen at a real sanctuary and what I found kind of ironic about that to begin with was this idea that he couldn't be with other chimps but they did put him with other chimps at Si's place um you know it's it's kind of like canny or canny you know like when it kind of served you to put him with other chimps than than you did right um but yes I it was an interesting argument I mean you know for me as I watched that I it it's so obvious that these people are not chimp experts um so they don't really have the um the experience to assess if Ponka would would be able to be with other temps and you know of course we have a couple a few people from Save The Chimps on this call right now who um who could give some some spoiler alerts that uh you know Tonka can be with other tips um but as I think everyone in this group already notes already knows because we've talked about it in other other uh other discussion calls that we've had a little bit of spoilers um but um did you it's it's kind of hard to see on my screen did you just launch another poll question Diana no I just closed the other okay gotcha um so Crystal Heath has an interesting comment that I wanted to address so she said um sorry that's not the one I wanted to talk about um Leslie as far as I know Sai was the one who helped Tonka he deserves credit he was switching out of the commercial side to our side he found the sanctuary side people more difficult I know he was trying so I I know um yeah Sai started as a basic very similar to Tanya he was an animal broker and um was attempting to establish himself as a sanctuary he claims he claims that he was let's yeah um but like we just discussed I mean it horrifies me to think about cutting the head off of a dead Chimp in order to have the skull of that chimp um and just so many other things that he participated in that um including IM embezzlement um from his local Township but I just don't think that his character is one of that shows that he was had the best interest of the animals in mind and and I don't think we need to belor belabor this um but I mean I will also say that he bragged in the episode about uh conspiring with Tanya to violate a federal court order um and actually Tonka didn't never needed to be at size or at Union Ridge Wildlife Center because we had a court order for him to go to an accredited Sanctuary um which Sai wasn't and um you know so so that was a really easy fix Sai could have called us at any time if he really cared about doing the right thing but he didn't and there's a comment um from Anna paa who is that Save The Chimps who says able cash Lucy and Anna were living in a room the size of a two-car garage their caregivers Smoked Cigarettes inside their rooms cash was too afraid to get through a tunnel to reach the outdoor Playard he showed up at Save The Chimps very pale from the lack of exposure to the sunlight and they're all doing well now and thriving at Save The Chimps yeah those are important things to important for context you know um and Patty would like to say something Patty you're welcome to speak yeah I wasn't going to pop in tonight but I do want to say a couple things um I learned things even though I've been involved in this situation for three or four years um when Connie Casey came down here and asked me to take her chimps before Tanya hadex worked out the deal to take over the ownership to avoid peta's lawsuit which then included her in it um Connie wanted me to take I think something like 12 our Sanctuary was what she felt comfortable with I didn't have room for that many and then Tanya got involved changed the whole nature of everything and clearly wanted to breed a baby chimp and Tonka had lived Tammy for years almost 20 years maybe not that long but 15 to 20 they produced multiple babies say The Chimps has a couple I have a couple and um Tanya knew that proven breeder Tonka you know was as I said a proven breeder and wanted him and the two youngest females in a deal that Britney do you want me to go into that sure yeah yeah you can well she wanted the two youngest girls and Tonka and um if she could build a sanctuary within a certain period of time which she did not do so the court said no they you didn't follow the court plan on this so you cannot have those three which were clearly for a breeding purpose and um so then she said all seven have to come to the Center for great eights so we were preparing to take all seven Tammy with her longtime companion Tonka um Cy candy and Connor and then the two little girls and a teenage boy Carrie and so we started hearing the um Rumblings of oh my favorite chimp died on social media without naming him and then actually naming that Tonka died a week or so before we went up there to pick him up picked them all up all seven and um of course when we got there they said that TKA had died and what shocked to me and watching this because I've been through this situation up and down was that um the very night our two veterinarians and two caregivers went up there to meet the van the trailer that we had actually um rented from Project chips because they had the best moving system of any of us I think um we were in a hotel right outside we weren't I wasn't there but our veterinarians were in a hotel the night before we picked him up and realizing that Tonka was also in a hotel that same night within about the same distance maybe even the same hotel for all I know it was shocking to me and here's why it was even more shocking because later not even a year what was it eight months maybe when Tonka was found in her basement Sai contacted me through this mutual friend and thinking that we were the sanctuary that was going to pick up Tonka from her basement which we weren't because we had taken eight more chimps between the time we took Connie six and when Tonka was found and I didn't have immediate room um he had the story wrote a letter to me saying he went and picked up tonen the day before we got there and he didn't know it was Tanga that they told him his name was Joe and he was just going to get a breeder chip for his three females he told us the same thing that he he had no idea it was Tonka he was it was his name was Joe that's what he was told which was clearly he was going to get this chimp Joe for his three females and he told me that he picked him up which everything was a lie about that and I didn't even know that till I watched it yesterday so I feel um you know I it just was such a mess but the fact that we didn't have room for Tonka I was very grateful to Save The Chimps that they could step up and they had room and the initial plan and um and aala can put in on this too was we were building more space and they were going to keep him for us for a couple months and then bring him back back but he did so well there and and bonded with some chimps there um that they wanted to keep him they fell in love with Tonka too I was just there last week visiting sa The Chimps saw Tonka on the island in his group um doing really well the girls apparently love him and you know I I would love for him to come back and be here with Tammy but Tammy's doing great in her group She's Got U Carrie there and one of our long-term male chimps um who's in his 30s about the same age as Tonka Ripley who's very good in groups and that is Tammy's new squeeze now so it's really worked out um all the way around but it's been a really rough road to go through and this I didn't want to watch this stuff but um watching chimp crazy kind of shocked me a lot too frankly wow as if it's not shocking enough you know even just seeing you know a Cage being dragged up the stairs at a Holiday end it's just one of the craziest things I've ever seen I think that the the point that you know was it Tanya's son that said they were afraid he was going to be beaten up at a sanctuary um Sai told me in the letter that he wrote through this medium person um that when he first put Tonka in with the three females they beat him up and they hurt him very badly and I had no idea if that was true or not um and then he took him out and then he put him back in again and and they he had terrible heart problems and um he didn't think he would live anywhere else well I do know that Tonka was according to the original not t hadex um that Tonka was put together with Connor and Candy Tonka Tonka and Tammy and Connor did beat up Tonka and um Tonka didn't fight back and I'd heard that a couple times and I think you know to their side I will give them the point that they were worried about um Tonka being beaten up but Tonka has done great in the group that he's in and um so you know you just don't know and we just don't throw thanks s just don't throw chimps together there's long um times of introductions Howes where they just visually see each other they take small steps if it doesn't go well we back up we may not go forward we find somebody else but um you know it's they're chimps and it it takes a lot of thought and a lot of planning and you read them and they tell you what they need and what they want so that's my only comment I just had to say that because I I do feel you know we were lied to a lot through this trying to do the right thing trying to work um with the original owner so that she felt comfortable where they were and she's been here several times to visit them and has posted on her Facebook page she's happy they're here while she misses them and she wish she could have kept them she's happy they're here and you know that's trying to keep everything harmonious across the line that's good thank you so much Patty and Anna Paula I saw in the chat that you wanted to share a story please do well it's just following up on what had just mentioned and I'll leave some more to share next week so that uh we don't we don't spoil the process here but when TKA arrived probably a couple of weeks later like less than a month later we welcomed the seven chimpanzees from the wildlife Way Station and they came in a group of five in a group of two and the group of two was Caleb and Jacob and um couple of months later after they all had gone through quarantine and we had observed their personalities we thought that would be a really good step to integrate TKA with Caleb and Jacob and I just W to want to mention the this this this scene of like in the middle of the process like Tonka was very comfortable being the being the lead whenever he was there was one situation where he clearly was was the was the alpha of the true I don't know if you can call that when it's just the true of them but he was definitely the leader and then in the other situ situation he was totally okay in um in in submitting and and and giving up to the other champ but at one point these two other Champs in this you know uh integration process the two of them had an issue and probably one of the most beautiful um uh experiences I had with with Tonka was watching him reassuring one of them by like putting his hand out and and just comforting him while he pulled the other one and embraced him so in with one arm and hand he was hugging one of them while with the other hand he was encouraging the other one and C both of them that actually they just had an accident because they ran into each other and it was just so beautiful how wise and gentle Tonka was at that moment and just like C the two of them so just to say you know uh yes he he knows how to be a chimp and whether that's you know through experience or Instinct he he really showed to have a really kind um personality and a a gentle and Beautiful Soul so and now he is with 17 uh and doing quite well and yes the the the females uh really enjoy his company but um what's also really special that as it turns out Caleb one of the chuch chimps from the wild LifeWay station is actually tonka's son so Tonka is with his son and it's amazing how closed they are and of course they did not know that but it's just like one of those magical thing so hat to share that thank you thank you so much anap paa um another part because you mentioned uh Caleb as his son another part that I found very disturbing in the episode was Tanya showing Instagram videos of tonka's sons that that are at um uh why am I blanking on the name do anel's place um mle Beach Safari yeah yeah I don't know if everyone knows about that but maybe Britney can say a couple words about mold Beach Safari H yeah um yeah one of the places that we're working to highlight through all of this so um Myrtle Beach Safari has a number of chimpanzees that they've acquired from a couple of different breeders throughout the country including um from Connie Casey um and they use the chimps for publicity stunts they once when the original the original remake of Planet of the Apes came out they did a stunt where they took the chimpanzees to the theater uh to see it um they also offer paid encounters with baby chimpanzees and um doc anel's son Cody has a massive social media following um um and I think that they're probably making a lot of money through his Instagram and Tik Tok videos um Hands-On with chimpanzees who are being dressed up yeah thank you it's super aggravating to see how much attention um they get and just there those chimps are getting older and you know who knows what's going to happen with them um speaking of that so Mary Lee who's on this call shared an email earlier that is a podcast that Tanya Harding was or Tanya Harding I keep saying that it's like stuck in my head wrong uh Tanya hadex was um interviewed on uh and I'm just going to share it in case anyone wants to listen to it an aala it will extremely infuriate you if you do listen to it um the last 10 minutes are a bit fascinating um and also extremely scary so she has this whole of how she's going to prove that um Tonka wants to still remain with her but she also said that when the camera crew wasn't there she would let Tonka out of the cage in the basement and he would just hang out with her on the couch and um scroll through TV and so I mean I I can't believe she said that after watching the series and the I mean not for her own safety because I know she's not concerned about that and you know she's somewhat delus about what can happen but just not having the the sort of presence of mind to understand that people who are listening have been watching the series and seeing what was happening to people who were doing exactly what she was just describing and um so I would think that Tonka would have remained very much I mean he would have ended up very much like a case like Buck um if she was able to keep him yeah and you know that's actually one of our uh discussion question questions we had for today is if it's kind of a good segue into that um you know why do you think Tanya was willing to freely admit her crimes on camera to a documentary crew I welcome anyone to to speak up and and answer your thoughts on I mean Diana just gave some of her her thoughts I think about her being delusional um but I would love to hear anyone else's thoughts on that vanity [Music] that's a good one right or maybe the idea that like they're going to see what I'm doing is so good that it's going to get me like that the legal trouble will go away because obviously I'm doing such a good thing here um of course would be very very delusional Britney you said you agree with that yeah I agree with that it's bizarre it's so bizarre to see someone just admitting Major Crimes on camera to a crew like that you know I um I was gonna the one major thing that stood out to me too that I didn't know about before was the number of foster children that she had had in the past and um I mean I feel that there's just a psychological issue there that she has I don't know what the word is for it if it's munchas and by proxy or whatever it is it's like she has the need to take care of or have beings reliant on her um and it's sad in some ways and I I don't think that someone like that you know you can like we talked about on our last discussion you can con convince them otherwise I I so I do want to point out that virtually everything that Tanya says is a lie so I take the fostered children and the number and all of these things very much with a grain of salt but the mun Housen by proxy thing is interesting and it's something that I've thought about a lot too and I can't remember if this I don't think that this comes up in the next episode but what we learned after all was said and done is is that Tanya was pumping Tonka full of massive amounts of drugs that he didn't need um and so that may have had something to do with her claims that he was lethargic and and these sorts of things and that was something that saved The Chimps had to deal with when he first arrived is you know changing that whole protocol and weaning him off certain things that he didn't need at all K I see you have your hand raised please go ahead yeah and I I don't know if this is something on apolla that you can answer um but it's one of those things that I've just been uh throughout this whole series just questioning did he truly have heart disease you know was there anything any um underlying uh I when he finally arrived you know was there anything that you guys were truly concerned about no we uh we we keep keep an eye on blood pressure because he didn't have a blood pressure issue so we we keep checking to see if he changed as we wind him off of a lot of uh the medication but no he he's he's healthy and active and um yes lost some weight and is enjoying a very healthy diet of fresh nutritious food no nuggets no nuggets no healthy meal just healthy meals thank you well I know we're little sorry go go ahead go ahead Andy no no go please please go ahead it's it's even fascinating to see even during this period of time that he's being at safe the chips how um he was very drawn to the human at at the beginning but he he's he's changed so much including his thought Behavior Uh like the the tongue right the the the the the tongue coming out and and they used to play with that and encourage that and he's doing that L and L and less and it's just wonderful to to to see that Evolution and and how resilient he is it's it's just incredible but more and more engaged with his chimpanzee friends and and adapting like no issue so far is just beautiful to watch him how he Embraces his through self and and the life that he should be having um so it's it's it's nice thank you so much for being on the call and telling us that I think that just helps so much watching the episode and hearing that um it is one thing that I also noticed particularly in this episode was just how much of her interactions with tono were asking him to do things um I and I don't know that it was a little bit subtle but almost everything was like her requesting some kind of behavior from him rather than just being with him sh off the camera good point now that you say that I I I didn't pick up on that but I agree with you sorry Britney I think I accidentally spoke over you oh no I was just yeah no agreeing and yeah she I probably is showing off for the camera well I know we're um a little over the hour um so I can certainly stay on and keep going I had a few more discussion questions and a couple more slides so maybe we can try to get to a couple other of the discussion um topics and um then I can share some some resources um if that sounds good to you Diana yeah that sounds great is there a particular did you want me to launch another poll um uh let's see I just lost my place um I think we can just kind of read them out if that works unless you unless you want to um I guess I'll do this one I'm just curious what the results would be for this so this I thought this was really good um Andy was wondering how people thought about this thought Diana thank you yeah that was one of the next ones I was going to ask about and can other people see the results on this one maybe it's just the short answer ones that aren't available to see yeah can you all see the results as they're coming in no okay maybe once there maybe after we end the poll yeah okay yeah you know as we're kind of waiting for people to to give their answers um it's hard to kind of not like yell at the TV at least for me as I you know as I was watching um Britney I would imagine maybe you felt the same way I mean I have really complicated feelings about it um yeah I have really complicated feelings about it we know for a fact that he was in her basement January 5th 2022 because that was the date of the hearing that we saw in the series and Eric called me on Memorial Day 2022 about the phone call so know that he was in that basement for at least that long we don't know how long he had been there before um so obviously we would have wanted to know immediately so that he didn't have to languish in that basement for five months and who knows what could have happened it could have been a a Travis or buck situation and you know reaching out to I don't know who the primatologists were that he claimed to have reached out to but um you know that was something that clearly could have happened they know how Reckless Tanya is so even if it didn't appear that he was sick um they were very aware of the fact that these situations happen and that that could have been the outcome for Tonka as well so it was really frustrating on on on that side but I also try to keep in mind that a lot of documentarians wouldn't ever have reached out to us they would have let him die because that was the story and so I'm grateful that they reached out to us and that they gave us this evidence um that we needed and and that's what that's ultimately what what got him out so I'm also incredibly grateful to them for doing that because they didn't they didn't have to uh and they did I thought it was interesting the way that he spoke to the journalist about it as a kind of I don't know a documentary um tool to have the conversation about his own hesitations about it yeah Kim uh I was just wondering if like it being an accomplice like knowing about it is there any repercussions for for anybody with that Erica just asked a very similar question in the chat yeah I mean certainly um for someone like Sai um who actively assisted Tanya in carrying out her obstruction of justice and her violation of the court orders um so Sai Connie Casey um potentially Tanya's veterinarian certainly Tanya's husband who submitted an affidavit to the the court under penalty of perjury saying that he burned tonka's body um those people without question are are potentially subject to accomplice liability um you know I I whether someone just documenting it um you know who isn't a party to the case I think you know that's probably a stretch sigh did not sorry Sai did not get in trouble for his part in this right he's in prison for an entirely different reason Dy has not gotten in trouble for this yet yet he's he's in prison for the embezzlement stuff but um yeah we there have been a couple of stories about this recently but um after I initially uh saw chimp crazy back in July and um we wrote a letter to the assistant us attorney um that the judge initially referred a perjury investigation to after we found Tonka um because the that a USA had determined that they didn't have enough evidence that the chimpanzee that we brought out of Tanya hax's basement was actually Tonka um and so you know I was able to you know kind of outline the overwhelming evidence from Tonka or from Tanya's mouth um that you know the the evidence that they need um and that complaint mentioned Jerry s wean and that complaint mentioned Sai it is very interesting that you can like be privy to what's going on and not have a legal obligation to report it like you can't like I would have like I'm not a legal expert by any means but just seeing that they are aware you know it's very suris wouldn't what remember the last episode of Seinfeld there was that law law in that town where oh I guess I'm aging myself yeah we we don't need to go into it but U those who know know what I'm talking about but yeah it is it is an interesting it is an interesting question we certainly want to see the the people who actively participate ated in the plot pay for what they've done um but ultimately the film crew did the right thing and um so I I'm grateful to them because if if they if they wouldn't have yes they should have done it earlier but if they wouldn't have tonko would be dead yeah well maybe one more uh discussion question and then we can uh jump to the resources um the one I had in mind um we have we have a couple more but I know we're um we're going over on time a bit um but one that I would like to ask is and Britney talked about this a little bit I'm curious what people thought of um Tamara ratti's behavior um so the for example the phone call I can't remember the man's name who was being interviewed Britney you might um remember um but uh you know when she says well he was like are you going to be involved in this or not and um because the story is going to get out there and she was like well that's impossible um and then she said some like kind of scary things like I will come for their children um some very aggressive uh things so that's something that stood out to me her alcoholism and how that could have impacted her behavior kind of these Grand stories that were kind of a fantasy about building enclosures um her Eerie calmness during the 911 call versus her erratic Behavior Uh when she spoke with Britney and then insisting on killing Buck um insisting on the head shot um all like and I know I've kind of like listed a lot of different things but her her behavior was so strange and I'm I'm curious what other people thought about it oh I see I will read this um from Erica she said she to run but uh she said that uh Tamara was very threatening to napsa as well in the past uh it was interesting to see um she was that way to others as well so that was before my time at napsa um so I don't know the details of that but um I'm not super surprised it also seemed like when she was I mean obvious was so shocking when she was adamant to have him shot in the head but it seems like he was in a different room by that point like a caged outdoor Pao so wouldn't it have been possible to close him out there her claim was that so she she claimed that there was that that was the only access point to get her to her daughter who was supposedly Gravely wounded so her her position was you have to kill this animal in order for First Responders to get to my daughter who who Gravely injured I don't know if that's true interesting any other thoughts on her her behavior in general and um I don't know if there's anyone else on this call who interacted with her at any point we have a lot of sanctuary folks here hey um this is a and um that was tough um I'm so angry at the people that you know there's one thing to have these nutso people right but in the situation in Pendleton there were a lot of accomplices there I talked to the state vet at that time and was just given a she's grandfather Dan she has a permit wouldn't hear anything about the danger of it she had you know a veterinarian local veterinarian on her you know she had this um horse rescue this nonprofit you know Animal Sanctuary she had a veterinarian on her Advisory Board she had the unders sheriff on her Advisory board that chimp was well known and that Sheriff's Department did not have a d gun and drugs available and another vet reached out to them and they refuseed to listen um unbelievable and yeah so it's one thing to have the nuto people that that you have to deal with and try to advocate for the animals but when you're law enforcement and you're a veterinarian and you're aiding and abetting this that is disgusting and those people should be held to account and we are going to be going to the media about Tanya hax's veterinarian and asking them to look into him um and his part in all of this yeah what about are is there any pursuing the situation I'm I'm sure there's nothing that can be done now as far as Buck situation but was that ever were those people ever it was just did anybody ever even hold them to account or ask them or did they just blow it off I mean there's there's almost so so we certainly raised concerns in um the media after Buck was killed um but thankfully there are no other chimpanzees in Buck situation in Oregon um so this situation won't be repeated um but in 2010 after um after Travis was killed a veterinarian the state veterinarian's office who inspected Brat's house um for her permit did raise a lot of red flags um you know and raised moral issues and and questioned you know what are we doing here and you know brought up the fact that she was using a shock collar on Buck um but as far as we can tell from the records she was instructed to approve the permit anyway um and this is what happened over and over again there were people who raised red flags in Travis's case as well um and those people are ignored and one of the cases that we're really trying to bring a lot of Right light to right now is a chimpanzee named Bo bow um who also lives in Missouri right now in a private home with a woman named a Catz um who posts bizarre videos of herself um being groomed by B on YouTube um and those are mon monetized videos um and she also sells bow merch um and so that is something that is required that's exhibition of animals she's required to have a USDA license for that we complained to the USDA about it about a year ago um they did investigate but she ignored them and they gave her a citation for exhibiting without a license but now it's been a year and they haven't done anything else and she continues to publish video after video after video um and he's going to be the next Travis and the next Buck if authorities continue to sit on their Laurels um so we've gotten one uh really good story about B so far we're doing a news release tomorrow um for a follow-up letter to the USDA with a cc to the US Department of Justice um calling for an Endangered Species Act case on behalf of Bo as well um and and hopefully we'll be able to bring some attention to his case thank you thank you Britney yeah and that I the veterinarian that I dealt with was um lamaster not Brad lamaster not not the one that approved the permit um I think Lee master came in in 2018 and I had tried to contact him in 2019 or something so it was just sort of a changing the guard and just carrying on I guess so so yeah vets need to be um better Advocates overall thanks thank you Aaron it's it was it was it was very hard to watch it's it's so upsetting and you know I personally I liked um a lot of what I think her name is uh Jamie had to say she was the one who um who kind of acted as a KNE of of sorts um to Buck over the years and there was one quote uh actually that I wrote down and I'm sure most of you remember it I'll but I'll read it here um it's a beautiful baby you feel so bonded to but it is so for you and at the expense of the ape and yeah that that really hit hard for me um it's just incredibly sad that it had to happen that way and thank you Britney and Peta for all you did to advocate for buck and it's just tragic um well I do want to share my screen again briefly I want to share um aoup of resources before we go and of course if anyone needs to go at any time we understand um we're running a little bit over um but I did want to are you all able to see that okay I did notice we've talked about this page before the official chimp crazy page how they have uh some resources I noticed that they add added Jean Goodall Institute uh to their list of resources which is great and of course we have saved The Chimps uh kind of funny that they don't want sers but their save the chimp leak uh go straight to tonka's bio um but it's great that they that they have this on their website I'm so glad and I hope that um Save The Chimps continues to get more POS postive attention for all they've done for to and all the other amazing temps in their care so I just wanted to share that that is there which is great um we've already talked a little bit about the Ohio 4 um I did just want to um and actually give me one sec I apologize I want to make sure I have this yeah okay I'll share my screen again I have some links that I wanted to share in the chat um that are just some nice Feelgood things um about the Ohio 4 so I will um I will share those now [Music] um there's uh some nice video um oops I think I just put them twice uh oh thanks for bearing with me there's one and here's a nice video from Save The Chimps so we've already talked about that a bit but wanted to mention it um and then uh we've talked a little bit about this before in our previous um huls uh but um we do have some additional educational resources uh chimpanzee Sanctuary Northwest has um some information on roadside zoos that I'm putting in the chat um and we also have um Napa's um educational resources as well I also wanted to mention a little bit about the chimpanzees and need work that napsa is leading right now to get all of the remaining tonas in bad situations um in the country to Sanctuary which Britney has been involved with and anaala and Diana and Kim and lots of people on this call have have been involved with so um you know there are more chimps in situations um that are not ideal um and we are looking at capacity um what kind of funding is needed to to make this happen because there's a little over 200 uh chimps including Bo who Britney just mentioned um so we're very hopeful that we can get out ah out of that um and do some some planning um I'm sure that many of you heard about the wildlife Way Station chimps and that was kind of an emergency situation where 40 chimps need to be rehomed and it took four years um to get those chimps to Great sanctuaries and it was excellent work um that got them there and the hope is with um continuing this chimpanzees in need project that we can um you know have space available and that it won't take that long um going forward and we've also been able to talk a little bit about the captive primate safety act in our previous discussion groups so just wanted to mention that again um I also specifically wanted to share these links uhoh I just accidentally clicked it so it took it but you can see here um the link that I um am talking about but uh one second I'll put those in the chat for you the nice thing about um these um using these two um links is that you can actually find if your um your senators are currently co-sponsors and that's really what um we need right now for this bill so if you go to um the adlf uh action alert um and you put in your um location it will show you who your legislators are and then you can compare that with um the uh co-sponsor information on the congress.gov and see if yours are already co-sponsor or not so I thought that was uh very helpful and I hope that you all find that helpful as well um I apologize getting this back into full screen all right all right and then just sharing the map again for anyone who may have missed it last time just kind of a helpful quick look at um you know where States currently are and why the captive primate safety act would be so helpful to have Federal legislation um uh protecting primates throughout the country um and this is a long list so I will put these all in the chat but um these are all really helpful resources we shared some of this last time so we have um the incident list from p uh which is a great resource um looking at how many in incidents there have been uh in the country there's also um someone mentioned this on our last call this documentary from Born Free about um primates who are pets and pet owners who um you know had bad things happen and came forward for for this documentary so I wanted to share that as well along with a database um from bornfree and um a uh report as well so there's a lot of really great resources if you're ever looking for information and if you need further information to help compel your legislators to get this legislation passed um and then just also wanted to share a great oped that was recently published um in MSNBC about the captive primate safety act so now that I have thoroughly bombarded you with links um just wanted to make sure that um everyone had access to that because there's a lot of great things happening right now to get this legislation passed I think that's all we had and I know we've gone quite a bit over but thank you to everyone who joined us thank you Britney so much it's really wonderful to have your your knowledge um your expertise and um we really appreciate all you have done for these shrimps and really looking forward to seeing the next episode I'm hopeful that it will be a little less heavy because we know that there will be good things happening ultimately um so fingers crossed that it'll be um um little bit easier to watch than some of the the others it has its moments sorry definitely good stuff but uh yeah yeah think thank you all so much for having me I really appreciate it and Incredibly grateful for all the wonderful work that everyone on this call is doing for chimpanzees absolutely thanks Britney and thank you di as well yeah thanks Andy for doing everything of course all right everybody we'll have a great night oh and we will share the recording when it's available yeah and there's a possibility that we might not do it on Tuesday next week because the debate may be happening um Tuesday so we will keep everyone updated on on our plans for that yes thank you Diana I appreciate you reminding me about that thanks everybody thanks so much Britney really appreciate it thank you bye bye thanks everybody bye