Kevin Woodley discusses the mysterious Thatcher Demko situation

we joined Now by one of the eminent gending experts the world over Kevin Woodley of in goal media joins us after what was an extraordinary week for the Vancouver Canucks in the crease how you doing my dude well I guess my Summer's over right like yeah you know this if this had been about a center or defenseman I might have been able to cruise you know at least into September before I started getting regular guest spots but uh yeah than to our friend Rick Dolly wall there is no rest for us go people right now so best you can tell Kev what happened here with that rempco oh that one there's there's still a lot of mystery around that one um how do we go from ready to play and I remember watching him in morning skate um game seven against the Oilers and just being blown away like they had taken the restrictor plates off um he was full Go full clearance to practice at 100% And he was flying out there um to him telling us afterward that you know that's where he was and he probably would have played in the next round especially with his numbers against Dallas almost almost certainly would have um to to now where I don't expect him at training camp I don't really expect him although there seems to be a fair degree of uncertainty internally and amongst those close to him about when it will be but I think the start of the season is probably a stretch too um something has to happen between those two things um whether it's uh something that that made it worse like like you know you you can tweak an injury right like can make it worse and require a procedure um but they haven't told this right we don't know whether there's been a procedure done that's certainly the buzz in the goal attending community and frankly one that I'd been hearing for a while um but not with a 100% degree of certainty so I'd be honest with you too like I think a lot of people if they hear that like procedure surgery would be more like they tend to react to that negatively and I look at that almost as a positive in some ways like if this was the injury from the playoffs that he was recovered from is still bugging him that would indicate a degree of uncertainty around the injury and we don't know when this is going to be better so if indeed there was the procedure then you have a timeline even if it's not going as quickly as you'd like you have a timeline versus just that uncertainty of not knowing like is this fully healed is this going to be a forever thing and my understanding is this like this is not a carry price situation where he goes in for a scope they find out the the miniscus terror is actually bucket handle recovery takes forever and he's never the same like my understanding is this is not that we're not looking at a this is something the mystery is is you know the start of the end at all um and as we saw in the playoffs if anybody's gonna beat a timeline and do the work to get back it'll be thermco because not many guys work as hard as him like he is very determined you know heard some implications that maybe they need to dial that back a little bit but um yeah so I don't have all the answers I just do think that some of the timelines that Rick has put out there um which forced me to start fishing a little more aggressively uh you know are accurate I don't expect him at training camp I don't know why the delay in in an now I mean I guess it would undermine your position if you're talking to other people if that is out there with certainty but I'm certainly not expecting him at training camp let's refresh where where we were before even where you started there on game seven um the injury that keeps him out till the final week of the Season different than this injury correct are we still going with that there that they are unrelated or at least different parts of the leg you can have a different injury to the same joint yes which I believe is what the the word that's out there but to suggest that a different injury to the same joint is completely unrelated to coming back from it seems you know that I mean I'm a do I'm not a doctor but I've talked to people that would suggest that's a bit of a stretch right compensatory injury something related yes right exactly exactly you you you injure one side of the knee you build it all back up and then you know inevitably there are other parts of the joint that that aren't able to handle I mean the the injury where he sustained it like that's a routine thing he does 100 times a day and practice right like like going into reverse and pushing off of it and yet you know at the end of the the day and I know nobody wants to hear this but this is a big part of goaling right now um we have guys getting hurt on somewhat innocuous movements um Joseph wo was a similar push off the post with Toronto the human body was definitely not designed to get into these um positions certainly not with the power and Pace that Thatcher plays and it's a lot of stress on the body and so as we we continue to see talk about workloads being pushed down into the 50 range and it's a fascinating time not a great time to be a goalie um because of all the stress on the body but this is this is not just here we're obviously hyper sensitive to it here but we've seen this around the league guys struggling to get through Seasons well Kevin if that's the case is there a debate in the you can get into them less often than than the system would suggest here then the system puts them into it here and that that would reduce some of the wear and tear um but again I I guess my one Counterpoint to that would be the you know literally tens of thousands of times that I've watched him pop in and out of that position without injury and then to have it in in a movement that like I said innocuous probably isn't a fair word but it's just an everyday thing he does all the time um suggests to me that that the joint probably wasn't at 100% for it to be caused by that but certainly Matt that's a discussion around the league limiting the amount of times you spend in the reverse limiting uh how often you go into it holding edges on those things that's a I was at a USA Hockey Symposium um in Minnesota their first ever National go ending Symposium in June and they were talking about for kids especially like we have pitch counts for minor league baseball and youth and base do we need to put a pitch count on a reverse count on goalies and and how much they play in things like that so this is a discussion for sure um at the end of the day there's also this system has also created a lot of VNA Trophy winners have you heard anything is there anything about this that has your mind go to the ACL and a knee injury Kevin I I know it's been well I mean I think it's like the knee for sure I don't have specifics beyond that guys um certainly I've seen the reporting uh I that reporting was out there in the playoffs and there was there seemed to be a this this knee-jerk reaction to that well that's not possible if he's doing what he's doing on the ice now I'm not saying like I I genuinely don't know what specifically within the knee is the issue or what the two issues were I just am under the impression it's the same knee um and that's the truth guys I like sometimes I have to hold things back that one I don't know um but you can tear an a without rupturing an ACL right like not all tears are complete tears you know not all tears are IL mck needs to be so there are different degrees there so those two things people couldn't seem to wrap their minds around those possibilities coexisting like him playing as aggressively uh as he was uh getting ready to come back and having a tour in ACL um and I do think they can coexist not saying they did I genuinely don't know but it is possible for those things you may be talking to somebody right now with tus ACL in college never got it fixed and found out a few weeks ago at the age of 50 that he's looking at a knee replacement so um you know it's probably not a good thing to play play through it but you certainly can talk about the happy 50th yes talk talk about the uh the relationship of Ian Clark and and Thatcher Demco um I mean that's going to get analyzed a lot given the announcement of the goal tending coaching staff um I mean I I'm not here to say that Ian Clark is too blam for that I can't make that statement uh I I don't know can you make that statement and and what do you think thato is thinking about that relationship now as he looks back 2020 um sorry like I I missed the state like the statement that like linking the two like the in just just the the the workload the uh the practice habits all that sort of stuff um I mean what what do you think thater Demco is thinking about now as he looks back in history at the way that he was used like Ian Demands a lot of his goenda with him um in there is no relation between their relationship and the change in goalie coaching there this is not that that Demco has nothing to do with the end not being the coach here right now in terms of like their relationship or being strained or like that's not why this happened that I can say with a a fair degree of confidence let me just jump in ch Kev this isn't management saying oh Clark it's too much for Demco we need to give him a different coach who's less demanding that's not the case here um I it's a tough one that may be part of their thinking process they haven't articulated that right um I think it would be pretty easy to make him the scapegoat for the injuries um I do think he Demands a lot and he pushes them hard and he puts them into those positions and it's tough um you know like like uh but he did so with Jacob markstrom with Sergey bosski with all the success they have I do not believe that in any way shape or form that they are directly linked however like that is not why Ian Clark is not like this is not a thatcher Demco decision for Ian Clark to not be the goal tending coach of the Vancouver knocks um I don't think thater would I I think there would be I don't I gota be careful because I don't want to put words in his mouth but I think there would be some hesitancy to lose him as his goal tending coach with the Vancouver kidox yeah because you can you can have an okay working relationship with somebody but kind of be neither here nor there that he's gone but you don't you think it might be be more positive than that that he is a little bit uh wary about what's what's around the corner yeah no 100% like I don't think he's going oh okay thank God I's gone um it's funny because I heard similar speculation when Jacob marrom left town right about you know okay like like out from under that relationship because it is a demanding relationship um last I checked Jacob marrom named his firstborn son after Ian not kidding so because that like not kidding guys that son will also make Jacob work so that that's fit yeah right so like there's there's a lot of there's a lot of stuff about out there about how this went down um I don't believe all of it to be true um but but like I you know we'll see like it's up to Thatcher to come out and say this so so it puts me in a bit of a tough spot um it's up to him to sort of come and say this and they put him in that position where he can either say nothing or or defend his guy but I do believe that relationship well certainly demanding as demanding as any goalie coach in the league uh was also very strong and I believe there is a very strong belief from that in what Ian does why uh understand why Ian's no longer the goal tending coach because the goal tending coach does have to get off the ice and uh get on the ice I should say and uh we know that Ian has some ailments there that are going to prevent him from being on the not exclusively though like not not like just not I I just think not on a Day-Day basis like I saw this transition coming I've said elsewhere that I thought it would be next year um but it wasn't I can never go on the I like I think there was a my understanding not in of this right now but of what the plan was was to be part of a transition and that would include getting on the ice I think he wanted to be here you know as a director to sort of see what he's built through for a long time like this is a role we've seen other organizations adopt so that that continuity so that all the all the stuff that got you arur covs and got you to the second round and a fair amount of gate revenue from that continues you know when he was in Columbus seven goalies were drafted six of them played in the NHL that's a pretty unreal track record covs is the first guy that he drafted here that he was a part of drafting here and we see where he's at I I I think the Aku the kid in Harvard despite being off the radar here in this market isn't as far behind that progression as as some as some might you know realize um and I I do think I think there was always a plan to be a part of it like where specifically went off the rails this year but I don't think it was I can never be on the ice again I just I just don't think it was the daytoday everyday goalie coach thing and again I thought this would happen in the future not this year so maybe something change even more to the question then why would they take director of goenda title away from we overarching responsibilities can't answer that with that of or Ian Clark do you think he's can't answer that because don't know or can't answer that because no because I'm genuinely confused by it yeah like because that's the progression I saw and and like I said I'm not privy to how it all went down um but that was the plan right like hiring Marco transitioning Marco up and being a director of Bing continuing to oversee this as as Mitch Korn is now with the nationville Predators as Bill Ranford is with the Los Angeles Kings as on the same day like the ju to position was hard to miss with Ben wair moving into a direct role with the New York Rangers on the same day that this came out hours before um so yeah like I I I don't know I I don't know why they wouldn't why they would choose a different role on paper a less a role um than what he had previously um it would be your gu disappointed hard to see why you would walk away from that much institutional knowledge and I guess you could look you could easily look at it like in fairness you could look at it like hey like I talked about the scouting and the drafting the developing record well that's the role they put him in right um I just think as soon as you take away director title I well say I know well I I sort of do like there are other teams that rais an eyebrow because now he's fair game it how quickly could that happen I genuinely don't know I I doubt it would be this year I don't know how those procedures work but as soon as you like as soon as you're into a scout you know I don't know what I have no idea what the contracts are right like but you know I mean the one thing that would have prevented in the past was a director title and director titles a promotion and it's pretty rare although we have seen I do know a goalie coach that was in the American League that was offered an NHL role in an organization that actually refused to allow him out of it that that has happened in the past but pretty rare rare that you wouldn't be allowed to take a a especially now that it's a promotion that's significant be your guess that he's disappointed that he didn't get this role as opposed to being getting close to 60 and you know what just I just want to cut down on everything you know or maybe you could have that cake and eat it too if you're you know arms length director I suppose yeah maybe but like I said like I just kind of I've talked to other guys in the league that have been around for a long time that know the track record and have seen the work here since coming back and are kind of blowing away um by the way they've decided to go on this um you know uh I me I'm not using the word disrespectful but other people have is it possible doesn't want to work that hard though they just doesn't want that that level of involvement anymore no I don't believe that's the case no okay because that was all because and again not specific to how this has gone down not me talking to him but just because I know I I do have an understanding what I think the long-term plan was and this wasn't it so maybe something did change right maybe something did change and like I said I got be careful here because this is the way things have gone here in the past couple of years like talking to us is you know not something that it's something that has gotten them out of contract so everything I'm talking about is sort of past like what I expected to happen as opposed to how this all went down so um just to be clear you're understanding because Clark is a hold over from the Bing regime last one if I'm not mistaken might be the last contract that wasn't signed by this group your understanding is that everything was working swimmingly well between the new regime in Clark until whatever happened here in the last few weeks oh I don't know I mean I I how do you characteriz swimmingly I I this is a you are talking about a very strong person you hadn't heard that they were not on the same page prior no and and and this is a and it's a very we're listen like I know Ian and I'm biased here like let's be let's be perfectly clear I am by like like it we're supposed to be impartial observers Matt and we try really hard um but Yan Clark's the person that got me into goal tending so your audience needs to know that my my bias is clear there this is the guy that taught me the position originally hired me to run a a now defunct magazine um and I learned so much from him as have many like there's nobody that's written more about the position it's why he's so highly regarded um so my bias lies there uh this is but I also know I is a very strong personality very strong personality very strong belief in self and what he does and so to say that like I don't know that there hasn't been clashes behind the scenes I genuinely don't know yeah but I don't think there was any problem with how the operation was proceeding and how the goalies were playing let's put it that way number one great dis Ure on your part uh well done Kevin uh secondly you have one conversation with Ian Clark and you understand he is a edgy forceful personality of that there is no doubt let's get on to patching the dam well I was gonna say let's let's Circle back now to the performance on the ice because we just we've just talked for almost 20 minutes about a lot of uncertainty right now with regards to not only the coaching but the playing of the of the position of goal do they have enough Concrete in the dam here or do they need to go find something else here is Yer Patera and Archer sheils going to be enough insurance for Thatcher Demco as far as we see it well okay so first off can we just let me let me start with the goalie coaching okay um because I do think because of that personality Matt and because of the track record you know you you guys know that I we could have a whole segment on the absurdity of Fran Lair not being in the Hockey Hall of Fame and the list of guys if that were to happen that would follow him would include his brother Benny would include Mitch Korn and when you talk to goalie people around would include like the bill Ranford and the in Clarks right like when in used to have that magazine franois subscribed to it right like nobody's de so the conversation is largely focused on him Marco tanus is an excellent rending coach he was highly coveted in Russia that's where he worked before coming over here he never gets to he's not an American Hockey League goalie coach unless Russia invades Ukraine and he can no longer work there Russian teams pay their goalie coaches more in many cases than NHL that's why these guys don't come over for American League jobs that opened the window to him being here to learning the ins and outs of in Clark's system while still applying all his own beliefs as a coach this is a guy that worked with eigor Sherin in Russia he's an excellent coach so I I worry all the focus on Ian also takes a little bit a way about how ready for this and how good Marco tanus is so um listen would I have loved that if in was there hand you know hand and fist working with all of them together yes but again some of that might be my personal bi so I don't want to lose that in terms of patching the dam Marco tanus while not having coached in the NHL and void toet lose a lot of NHL coach coaching room experience this summer when you add him to in Clark to Miko but he's an excellent coach on the goal tending side can't answer that question because like I said there is genuine uncertainty I'm pretty confident about training camp in the start of season but beyond that there seems to be a lot of uncertainty and as I said nobody works like thatcha works and once he has confidence in that knee he'll be back as quick as possible um means he's missed his regular offseason normally he's been on the ice for two well I I just looked at the calendar I can't believe it's almost September he's normally been on the ice by now for a month with Ian Clark here in Vancouver behind the scenes in privately that hasn't happened no training camp no preseason games like it's G to be you know he's going to be trying to catch up to a moving train a little bit here so whether that's a month in or more man 17 NHL games of experience you know as much as I love Yuri Peta when they got him it was also an understanding that there were things that much like a lot of their guys they get them in the American League they see potential but there are also things they they want to work on and usually it starts in the a um to throw them right into the NHL you know that that's not a finished product for them so uh options are out there um Rick's reporting on Kevin Lincoln and who by the way like coincidentally it's too bad I don't think the money works here like I just I just because I think that's the only reason he's not signed is he made two million last year and was probably looking to make at least that this year otherwise he should have been one of the first guys signed this summer he's ready to pop the same numbers that led me to say Charlie linger would be the best contract signed three summers ago and now he is or two summers ago and now he is the same numbers that led me to say that Conor Ingram is some someone team should claim off waivers from Nashville because he's ready to pop Lincoln has the same underlying numbers he's ready for a bigger role and he's ready to pop in the NHL doesn't mean he's going to be a vzna winner or a star but he is an NHL goalie with a lot of upside that's yet untapped um the problem is that there's an expectation that that comes with a certain salary so we'll see what happens there just kind of lucky that he's one of the options and by the way he's worked with Marco Teran has trained with him in the off Seasons back in Finland where Marco works with a bunch of NHL guys beyond that though it gets pretty thin in a hurry people have suggested Martin Jones I've I've been told he's retiring um where you can get a guy I think PTO and the the Rick reporting that they were looking at a PTO candidate tells me that my timeline isn't off we don't have somebody for camp but we expect them to be back early in the season because the PTO lets you get out from under it whereas a contract's on the books takes one of your 50 away and you got to find a space for him even if that space is in the American League because the contract's small now you're pushing toap pilo down and they want him to play right and that's the thing about Peta he doesn't demand minutes in the a topo still would have played and developed at a body and that gets tougher to do so what are you left with I think you're left with waivers and if if if you get to the point where you're at near the start of the season and Thatcher is at a point where you know it's going to be longer than maybe you think or hope right now uh and the word Patrick Alvine gave me like 10 days ago for an nhl.com piece is we're hopeful he'll be ready for the start of the season so maybe they still hold up that hope um but there are a lot of teams with NHL guys that are headed to the American League unless they see this need and hold on to three through the start of the season I look at I mean Buffalo peka Lucan and Devin Levi are going to be in the NHL and that means James Rymer although they they're a team that used three last year and kept three in the NHL but I think James rymer's on the waivers uh that's a million-dollar contract again because you can move it to the miners at any time uh I look at I mean Winnipeg signed Eric comry and kaok kaken one of those guys is going to the minors um you know there's I mean what's Detroit got four guys I can't figure out what they're doing honest with you um so there are going to be guys who can play NHL minutes and give you good NHL minutes and let's let's not forget this is no longer a Vancouver conu team that needs their goal tenders to stop bullets in their teeth they've actually learned how to play defense under toet and they defend really well so you can get through with good NHL goal tending the only thing they're missing right now is a lack of experience and you can find that I believe on the waiver wire closer to the start of the Season Archer shiloff actually gets on the ice this week and in competitive situation he's trying to get laia to the Milan Olympics in 2026 good thing for him and the Canucks that he's getting some early competition here in August prior to all this and perhaps having to start the opener for an intra thater Demco uh hey it's never a bad thing to get game reps um it's a different style of game over there than what he'll face here but it's never a Bad Thing uh normally I would say bad thing that he's not in the ice here working with with their goal tending coaches but that's all changed too although Marco's here and working with the guys on a daily basis so he would have benefited from being here too um I mean the only the only downside to that Matt is injury risk and um it's already happened to one organization that's looking for a replacement goalie based on one of the earlier tournaments I don't think it's been disclosed so I'm not going to name it but um there's already been a team that lost a guy that they had in their plans uh in their depth chart at least uh from one of the earlier PR Olympic tournaments that I think was at the start of August so it happens right like knock on wood because this is a big year for ourter but that's the only the only possible downside I mean it's you're playing against elite players you're getting the feel for games it's like getting a couple preseason games in uh in advance and we've talked before about how limited although I guess with no Demco there's more opportunity in the preseason than there would normally be but usually the starter takes a couple of them right and pretty quickly there's not much left once you get into the games at match and you don't want those guys in the early games where especially when you're on the road and you've got a nothing lineup and you're getting pumped like that you're not actually building game habits when the game looks nothing like it will when the season starts Fair uh can I just ask you can we add one more team to that list is Vegas with Hill Samson off and schme likely waving an NHL goalie down to the a yeah but but it's probably gonna be AK Kira schme does he need to clear waivers I'm assuming that was part of the devil's moving on and he basically gives you what you have right now and that's not a ton of NHL experience and and he's not a pure project because he's had success but a bit more of a project I like airish me I think there's upside there I just think the Devils put both him and Nik do in a situation where they were asked to do too much too soon outstanding stuff as always Mr Woodley we will see you at Northlands tomorrow with your soon to be reconstructed knee your new tattoo and your 50-year-old passport thank you sir yeah my swing still looks the same unfortunately guys so a virtue eyes when we get out there tomorrow look forward to it thanks buddy thanks man