Anne Applebaum, Pulitzer-prize winning historian on AUTOCRACY, INC.: THE DICTATORS WHO WANT TO RUN T

before we get started I wanted to take a minute to tell you something I'm very excited about the Atlantic Festival I've been reading the Atlantic for years so many of my favorite writers and thinkers contribute to this it it's a historic publication I kid you not I am on there almost every day reading just excellent robust material on a lot of the subjects that I care about the most well the Atlantic Festival is coming up on September 19th and 20th at the warf in Washington DC there's also virtual passes for folks who wouldn't be able to physically make it there so that's cool but check this out in addition to many of the best journalists in the world who are associated with the Atlantic they have an incredible lineup of speakers including Supreme Court Justice katangi Brown Jackson speaker merita Nancy Pelosi Secretary of Energy Jennifer granholm Senator John fedman so hoodies will definitely be allowed uh they'll have political strategists David axel rod and Carl Rove there there'll be a few folks that have appeared on this program like Jonathan height and Bill Crystal along with um a number of my favorites like Tim Miller and Sarah Longwell with the bull workk so again that's the Atlantic Festival it's coming up on September 19th and 20th at the warf in Washington DC uh and again you'll be able to participate virtually if you need and the link is the atlantic.com live Atlantic dfal d224 again the atlantic.com SL livethe Atlantic D Festival d224 but I'll put that in our show notes to make it easy and now on tour [Music] show this podcast is part of the Democracy group welcome welcome welcome we are talking politics and religion without killing each other I am your host Corey Nathan and it is an honor to be a part of the Democracy group that's a network of podcasts that examines what's broken in our democracy and how we can work together to fix it and be sure to join our patreon which gives you access to our moderated Community chats exclusive tpnr merch and adree episodes among other benefits it's our sub subscribers who help us keep these conversations going so thank you uh just go to patreon.com politicsand religion that's patreon.com politicsand religion and also it' be super helpful if you take a minute to write a review of the program the links to the patreon and easy way to write that review are all in our show notes this help so we can continue having great conversations like the one we're having today with Anne Apple Bal Anne Apple Bal is a staff writer at the Atlantic she's also a senior fellow at the Agora Institute at John's Hopkins University where she co-leads a project on 21st century disinformation she's written numerous books including Gulag a history which won the 2004 politer prize for General non-fiction her most recent books are Twilight of democracy an essay on democracy and authoritarianism and autocracy Inc the dictators who want to run the world which we'll be discussing today and's had a renowned career and continues to contribute important reporting and Analysis on pivotal stories here in the US and around the world so I'm really grateful to have her on tpnr with us today and thank you so much for joining us how you doing bye thanks for having me you bet you bet I know it's a whirlwind uh doing these these book tours these virtual book tours so I really appreciate you uh having the stamina to to hang out with the likes of me so of course so you know I I was really curious before we get into the book I was curious going back to your days as a student at Yale and throughout your career it seems like you've been drawn to the the Borderlands as as you refer to it in your first book I was curious what what originally your curiosity and Drew you to that region of the world so it's always funny to look back on one's um you know one's motivations in you know in one's 20s uh you know some some decades later and some of them now seem fairly silly to me the things that I thought I was going to learn by studying Russian or I was going to achieve by by by by traveling in uh what then felt like the Borderlands and that would be the Territory between Poland and Russia so it was Ukraine and belus and Lithuania um the western part of what we used to call the Soviet Union um a lot of it was romantic ideas about forgotten places and trying to tell stories that people didn't know I mean it was a it was really an attraction to a part of the world that seemed um at that time unknown and of course now it's very well known I mean Ukraine is is very much on the map and is center of a lot of news stories and Poland which is where I am right now while I'm speaking to you is an integrated part of of Europe in every conceivable sense of the word so so the the the the romance of Forgotten places is now gone but but but the but but I have I suppose what continues to interest me is two things one is the connection between the past and the present so the history of places that I've written about some my I've written several history books myself and that how that continues to shape the present and and also the you know the the the the the the idea of dictatorship or authoritarian or authoritarianism or totalitarianism uh as it continues to evolve and actually this book that I've just written is really addressed to that so as as you as you just described I I wrote several books about Soviet communism um but more recently I've come to understand that modern dictators are a little bit different and this book attempts to explain what that is you speaking of past and how the past shapes the present as a historian if I if I remember correctly I think I read that your gr great grandparents immigrated to the States from what's now bellaro in the mid 1800s have you been able to uncover any specifics about your own family story I I have I mean I didn't know that it's of vast general interest but um but yes I have some great grandparents and some great great grandparents who left what was then the zaris Russia and moved actually to the American South and some of them wound up in Alabama um which is where my father's from and that's a that's that's a long separate story that I I have I will write about actually at some point because I find it interesting um my mother's family took a different route and they're from part of them are from what was then alsas Lorraine or what's still alsas Lin but and they wound up in New Orleans so um they none of them I should say none of my grandparents were born in Europe and nobody in my family spoke any East European languages so I didn't have any sense of being part of that kind of culture when I was growing up you know quite the contrary I mean maybe you could in some psychological way trace my interest in the region to to some I don't know some deep genetic inheritance but um it was really more uh it it was more as I said it was an attraction to the unknown it was it was an interest in the Soviet Empire at at you know in the 1980s when it was beginning to end all those things rather drew me to the region rather than my family well not speaking of your family but just my own interests I would love to learn Russian if for no other reason than to read Dusty or you know some checkov comedies in the you know in the original language so have you that was that that was another one of my original interests was that I I was a great fan of Russian novels when I was in high school and I wanted to be able to read them in the original and the funny thing is um I can read Tolstoy Tolstoy is such a clear writer and he writes so beautifully uh that I I find him pretty easy to read in Russian and the writer who I loved the most when I was 18 which is Nabokov I cannot read because his Russian is so hard and it's convoluted and it's he he he he puns in multiple languages and his vocabulary is very big so I find him I find him difficult but so I suppose I got I got halfway there it's funny there's a line in buuy blues where uh Eugene the character Eugene is talking to Arnold um and he says what's what's your favorite book and and Arnold says war in peace the third time and I I think I think if you if you don't speak Russian or understand Russian a good translation makes all the difference in the world but I don't want to digress too much on that no no mean tol sto is one of the ones who's easy to translate because he writes I don't know how to describe this but he writes like an English person you know it's not convoluted it's very straight sentences he's a very clear which is which is a which is an Anglo-Saxon way of writing um and you know often often you know Russian is this is this is more than you want to know but Russian is a language that declines so endings change and so you can these kind of circular sentences like German um and to but Tolstoy is is all all his books are easy to translate yeah that's um that's interesting because I yeah I I've I've read different translations um that that and the experience was completely different uh depending on what translation I was reading but uh that that makes sense that makes um that makes sense now I was also curious about your own writing your not just your writing but your early career um one how did you how did you learn how to write but two where did you where did you there was this adventurous spirit that you had you know traversing these far off places of the world to to to chase stories was it a sense that that you were in the middle of History being made that you overcame the dangers that you were facing or um I'm I'm curious about it all how did you learn how to write how did you overcome those those risks all of it so I mean I think learning how to write is like learning how to do anything you just have to do it a lot uh so so it's partly about writing a lot and I was I was a I was a reporter I was a foreign correspondent I and I I there were times when I wrote stories every day um I think also learning how to write is about reading you know you all writers start out by copying other writers and I don't mean plagiarism I just mean you're inspired by somebody's style and so you try to write something in their style and then as you continue to do that eventually you develop your own style uh and I think you I think if you read a lot then that also helps you write I it's funny I teach a uh it's a it's a non-credit course at SC at the at John's Hopkins school of advanced international studies on writing and one of the things I I tell students is to find an article find it find you know find a columnist you like or find a journalist who you like and copy them so try and write something the way they would write it and you know of course you're not going to publish something that's a that's a mockup of somebody else but the process of learning how to write often is learning how style works and how somebody else's style works I think that's I think that's an important piece of it and and developing your own is about understanding starts with understanding that I mean as for as for traveling I that's also it's like asking me why did I originally study Russian I mean there's a I was just attracted to the idea of travel and to going to places nobody had been before were hard to get to uh and that that Drew me first to Russia then to Ukraine then to Poland so you know finding myself at a turning point in history wasn't something I'd planned you know I didn't know in I don't know in 1985 which is the first time I went to Russia that anything was going to change but yes it's true that by 1988 89 ' 88 is when I moved to Poland to be a freelance journalist by then I was you know I I did understand that things were changing and understanding it wanting to understand what it was and what was happening and what were the side effects of it and what you know is something that has occupied me to this day I mean I think also the fascination with the Soviet Union and Soviet ideology which produced three long history books among other things was also you know I was there at the moment when it was falling apart and I've always spent a lot of time since then trying to understand what was it in the first place and why did people support it you know the the gulag which I wrote a book about wouldn't have been possible if there hadn't been millions of people who sustained it and the Ukrainian famine which I've also written about wouldn't have been possible without thousands of collaborators and so who were the collaborators and what was the appeal of the ideology I mean that was a that was my motivation for a lot of my history books and and you know as I said when you see it ending you you end up asking yourself well how did it start and I think that's a that explains it yeah now forgive me for asking perhaps ignorant sounding questions but part of what fascinates me about your writing today as well as your your books is how how did you learn how to do it like not not just the writing and I'm curious about your Inspirations who you were reading uh to to learn and develop your own style but more concretely how did you learn how to get from Warsaw to to Kiev how how do you pronounce it properly ke how did you learn how to navigate all of these different countries all of these different territories as well as gain access to the people like I was just reading a piece um uh a week or two ago where you said I was speaking with the new prime minister of of um of of the UK you know how do you how do you navigate those different territories and how do you gain access to the people to do the actual work to do the actual reporting and writing well that's I mean some of them are lifetime accumulated experience you know so what I was able to do when I was 25 is different from what I can do today um you know getting getting around a complicated country is something you do by asking local people and by F you know you you always find your way in somehow you find your way in through a person through a connection um even when you're doing archival research actually especially in the Soviet Union or what what was the Soviet Union it's now Russia um you know having an archist or friend who's worked there before I mean even even historical work depends on a kind of journalistic effort as well you know so you know it's so you know you think okay I want to get to this institution who do I know who can get me there and sometimes you know if you work for a big newspaper or magazine if you're the New York Times or in my case I was very lucky when I was younger to be a correspondent for The Economist you know you say The Economist and people say oh okay we've heard of you we'll talk to you um and then some of it is um again accumulated friends and years of hanging around I mean kir starmer who's the new British prime minister um I met him become and this is more than again more than you want to know but he a a friend of mine is his biographer um and this been somebody who I've known for a long time and so it was really you know I I it was through him and then through other people who I knew in the labor party that that particular Escapade was arranged but but there's a you know maybe he would see me anyway because of the Atlantic or maybe he would spit but but it was a it was a you know you you you know you you you you look for the people who have ways in and you talk to them and you convince them of whatever for whatever reason it is that you need to talk to them but I mean remember Jour people want to talk to journalists I mean well they don't always want to talk to journalists actually I don't think kir star did want to talk to that many journalists but um but they but they have an interest in in how you're going to write about them so really if you are a person who likes the idea of talking to people and you want to spend your life having interesting conversations then journalism is the way to go because it's a it's a profession where that's what you're required to do I mean you're meant to you know you're meant to be chatty and uh and and I do like that I mean it's I I sometimes think I'm very lucky you know so my job involves asking interesting people questions and finding out what they think to to the degree that I can and I've always liked doing that so so it so it suits me I finally figured out after hearing you say that I finally figured out what I want to do when I grow up there are other professions that are similar I mean there's a Academia has some aspects of that too you know you're allowed if you're an academic you're allowed to go all kinds of places and ask all kinds of people things um yeah so but but but that's it's one of the advantages of Journalism yeah no in all sincerity that's what I've Loved about this podcasting Journey um is at the end of the day really great a really great use of this medium is when you get interesting people engaged in meaningful conversations uh and then you the medium is an intimate one where we're inviting others to be a part of this conversation as well and now with social media they get to you know chip in and tell me the questions that I missed and how else I screwed it up so before we move on I wanted to tell you about something else that's important money specifically your money in all seriousness I wanted to tell you about my advisor and my friend George Mesa George runs Mesa wealth management and with George it's not just about money it's about helping us manage our present and plan for our future and unlike a lot of other firms out there George and I actually have a relationship he knows me he knows my family and I know his wonderful family I also know his firm and the incredible team he's put together from his chief investment officer to some of the other great people in his office like Jessica their head of operations that are always there to help me and with all aspects of our portfolio you see the thing is I got a lot going on I guess we all got a lot going on and I don't have the time to watch our investments all day every day and even if I did I don't have the experience and expertise that George's team collectively has so we get the entire Mesa wealth management team all their expertise and all their integrity and again it's based on George knowing me personally knowing my goals and even the kind of risk that's appropriate for me to take which by the way could change from one season to the next and they're on top of all of that so if you want George Mesa and and Mesa wealth management to be on your team just visit their website Mesa wealth.com that's Mez wealth.com www.mesa wealth.com and that will also be in our show notes so you can check that and now back to our show I did want to talk to you about autocracy Inc uh just to set the stage you point out that autocracy Inc isn't like military or political alliances from other times and places so if you would what is autocracy Inc and what are what ways are those that are part of it working together to stay in power promote their system and damage democracies so autocracy Inc is what what I'm describing in the book is a network so it's not an alliance and it's not an axis it's a network it's a and I was looking for a metaphor to describe it and the metaphor I came up with was a big International conglomerate you know where there are a lot of separate companies that each have their own business model but they collaborate where it's necessary and there is a group of dictatorships who Now operate more or less like that so I'm talking about Russia China Iran North Korea and a host of other weaker countries so Venezuela I write about Zimbabwe partly because I have a friend from there um uh you know Burma berus and these are countries whose whose whose political system you know they they vary a lot they have very different ideologies so communist China and nationalist Russia and Theocratic Iran are very different from North Korea and belus and so on um but they have one common interest and it's because they have a common enemy and the enemy is us and the enemy is the liberal world the Democratic World however you would like to characterize it and it's partly it partly is about our ideas so these are political systems in which the leader or the ruling party or the ruling cleck has no checks and balances there is no independent Judiciary there is no media there's no transparency and there you know they they seek to rule without any any restraints and what liberalism is democ you know what what what what democracy and liberalism are are political systems that that that that that AB depend on the idea of restraints restraints and checks and balances and rights you know people individuals have rights sometimes groups have rights and and those ideas are very dangerous to the autocrats um so uh because and and it's because they hear those idea they hear the idea of rule of law transparency democracy right human rights when they hear those ideas whether it comes from us or whether it comes from their own oppositions which also use that language they seek to push back on it however they can and whether that's through you know whether it's economically or whether it's through information war or whether it's through repression inside their own Societies or even the use of transnational repression so the attempt to repress their own Exiles or dissident around the world they're pushing back against that system all the time and in in recent years there's also a military aspect to this so the war in Ukraine you know there are number of reasons why it began but one of the most important reasons is that Russia saw or thought it saw an opportunity to crush the liberal Democratic aspirations of a state on its border a state that they had been in you know in shared Empires with in the past uh and who and and who they did not want to have adopt a western style or European style political system because that would be threatening to Putin so the the Ukrainian revolution of 2014 when young people got up on in the maidon and their Square in central Kiev and They Carried signs you know calling for end to corruption and democracy in the European Union Putin understood that as a direct threat to him because if people used that language and carried those signs in Russia then he would have to go because his political system depends on repressing those ideas um and so so increasingly there's a military aspect to this too and of course it could spread and and the again I I I can't stress enough it's not a cold war it's not like there's a dividing line you know it's there's no Berlin Wall there no good guys on one side bad guys on the other um rather this is a world of um of autocratic dictators and also autocratic behaviors and practices some of which we find in our world too so part of the argument of the book is that they have both grown and enrich themselves partly because of us and with our cooperation and that they now have some attempt to they now have some influence over us as well and that that's that's the core description of the book and and of course in many ways and I'm sure we can talk about this is very different from the dictators of the 20th century not least because these are very very rich people they are billionaires they have secret funds stored in tax Havens all over the world their families are very wealthy they're their friends in the business Community are very wealthy and that you know and that already gives them more power than Alaric isolated dictators of the 20th century one one of the things that that became very clear to me and you've talked about this a little bit already is that this isn't a war uh like the wars that we studied in high school history class where there's a border although that is involved like the dispute now between Russia and Ukraine but it's much more pervasive than than that to the point where you talk about the concept of poisoning ideas poisoning the idea of democracy poisoning the idea of freedom of speech freedom of press and things like that how um how did those methods come to emerge and how how does how does China do that like how does China crush and poison an idea for for its population by attempting to show themselves and really the autocratic World more broadly as a Haven of safety and stability and security and by portraying the Democratic world as divided dangerous and even degenerate so even sexually degenerate is sometimes the implication the Russians are more into that than the Chinese are but um they they portray their their system as um something that will protect you and our system is something that will undermine you that will maybe steal your culture steal your traditional way of life uh and and they can offer something more secure and more safe um and they you know and sometimes this in you know in Russia this has taken a very um you know it's been it's a very clear form so there was a few years back there was a a study done of what Russians learned about Europe from Russian State television and you know a whole huge range of television programs were surveyed and statistics were made and you know what what kind of programs are there and what are what are people learning and and and the conclusion was I'm I'm I'm simplifying it somewhat was that Russians were being told that Europeans uh you know are of course they're unhappy and miserable they're and of course they're um you know of course they dislike their own governments but also they're being murdered by rants on the street uh their children are being taken away from them by social workers um you know gay propaganda is is is undermining their marriages and is also stealing their children as well uh so there's a there's a series of narratives about Europe that are designed to make Russians afraid of Europe and also more importantly to make them not aspire to be European so Russians many Russians do feel European they've been part of European culture for a long time there you know we just started this conversation talking about Tolstoy he was somebody whose native language was basically French I mean he probably spoke that as often as he spoke Russian um you know the Russians have been in contact with Europe for um you know for Millennia uh and so and and what what Putin needs to do is make sure that Russians don't aspire to what Europeans have which is again the rule of law um you know Trent transparent systems rights you know at least some democracy you know not every European state is a perfect democracy um at least some free media and again not every not every state has perfect free media but the idea is to make sure that the Russians don't want that and they don't aspire to it and so however they can poison it however they can show Europe as as as I said degenerate and dangerous and horrifying and and other and different then then that's what they'll do and that's a project that they started in Russia and that they continued in Europe itself so they um through proxies so through you know far right or sometimes farle political parties you can you you can often read the same messaging in in Europe about the safety and stability of autocracy and the div divisiveness and degeneracy of of democracy and of course there's a version of that inside the United States as well and you know not all of that is Russian I mean a lot of it is American you don't need Russians to create those narratives uh anymore I mean there was I think the Russians had a role in um designing the way some of this propaganda Works um but it's now much more broadly adapted and and you know I mean I think it's now kind of a mutual project you know so the it's not as if the Russians create things they just amplify stuff that stuff that Americans and Europeans do but it's a but it was um but it it's not an accident that these ideas emerged or that they became more popular that they're somehow attached to Russia or to other autocratic States because they saw this as part of their project that we need to undermine those ideas to poison them mostly so that our own people don't admire them or want them yeah as as I was reading the book I was trying to es skew my tendency to think in a myopic way you know uh but I I couldn't help but realize that some of the tactics that were being deployed by Russia and China and some of these um members of autocracy Inc if you will um are mimic or echo or are very much in line with some of the very same storylines that are being propagated here in the states um of course you know even Tim Walls uh as governor of of Minnesota part of the attack line was that he passed legislation where the state could kidnap your children if you you know or or you know there some of the very same storylines not not that there's any um truth to it but there's enough truthiness ingredients of truthiness that they they gain traction with a certain part of the population uh so I I could you know again I was trying not to think I was trying to keep a wide lens uh and learn about our world as opposed to think just just about here in the States but there's definitely a lot of resonance about what's happening here uh now no no I mean and it's not an accident I mean these are these are narratives whose power you know became clear over time and the power you know the Russian propagandists see their power and the American far right sees their power um you know the the the Deep fear of your children being stolen um is something that is common to all humanity and so and so the idea that the state is stealing your children or that the state is corrupting your children or I don't know Governor Waltz is corrupting your children is something that that can H you know that that can gain traction which as you say with the with the right number of both truths and untruths put together in the right way and and you know I I you know again I can't say it enough I mean it's not that the Russians have invented this and thrust it upon us it's that it's a it's a mutual um you know it's it's a joint project kind of yeah you know invented simultaneously in the US and uh and and Russia and and and and again elsewhere um you know the irony being that the one state which is kidnapping children um and is taking them away from their parents and changing their names is of course Russia which kidnaps Ukrainian children um from both from children's homes and also from um from even from families in occupied Ukraine brings them to Russia gives them new names tries to rify them and you know and there's of course a whole International project designed to get them back but um but but the but the fake taking away you know your children are being stolen is is a is a very prominent farri propaganda line yes the other thing that was striking was the degree to which the rest of the world is complicit in kleptocracy and and autocracy for example you talk about um companies like Microsoft Yahoo and Cisco um helping to establish the great firewall of China as as um as it's called um or even um at one point you were talking about real estate agents who don't ask too many questions in Sussex or Hampshire the factory owner eager to unload failing businesses and waren the bankers and soue Falls what are some of the other ways that um the the world is is like I said complicit in in uh autocracy Inc I think you know I I tell the I give a little bit of the history of this in the book I mean I so I think in the 90s there was this idea that any economic relationships with anybody were good you what was that expression that the German Chancellor um used that that it sounded you know CH you know um you know you know change trade brings change basically um and and eventually that became you know you know trade brings democracy there was this kind of believe that belief that you know any kind of cooperation is good any economic integration is good because it will lead to more you know we'll have more contact and then there will be peace and then eventually our great ideas about democracy will travel from the West to the east as it then was and that will you know bring Perpetual peace and we'll all be happy I mean there was a kind of I mean I'm exaggerating yeah but there was a there was a there was a more sophisticated version of that that a lot of people accepted and I should say including a lot of people in Russia and China um who hoped that economic relationships with the Democratic world would open up and democratize their countries and you could even argue that they did um for for a period of time um but what started to happen you know certainly in Russia where again I tell the story in the book is that a as a small group of people captured the state um they they were able to take State resources they were able to launder them in the Western World sometimes bring them back into the Russians sometime into Russia sometimes hide them um turn them into big property purchases in London or in the home counties uh turn them into uh you know strange Investments even in the American and Midwest um as a way of hiding or or laun in their money and our financial systems you know you know allowed them to do it I mean we were we were their Partners or you know American and European lawyers and accountants and bankers were very happy to work with Russian oligarchs or Chinese oligarchs um in order to do this and and you know one of the arguments of the book is that one of the ways in which we can push back against the autocratic world is by pushing back against autocratic behaviors um including money laundering dark money you know injecting more transparency into our political system all those things I think have um you know you know you know could have an effect on undermining the autocratic world and also improving our own politics yeah I do want to ask you about the fight uh how we fight against autocracy and autocratic behaviors as you put it but first I there there was a pivotal moment in recent history uh and I'm going to I'm going to quote part of your toward the end of your book uh a little bit here um you say in the Autumn of 2023 both the European Union and the US Congress found themselves unable to send Aid to Ukraine because minorities with deep Russian ties LED respectively by Victor Orban and Hungary and by a handful of MAA republicans in Congress many acting under the instructions of Donald Trump blocked the majority and delayed the aid a narrative promoting Ukraine fatigue spread across the internet pushed by Russian proxies and Chinese media in multiple languages what was remarkable about this particular moment is that it was like the first Domino uh to be pushed over setting off this series of other dominoes of Acts of aggression around the world so for example many of us know the date October 7th 2023 by heart uh for tragic reasons but can you go into more detail into all that was happening at that time yeah I mean to be clear I don't think these actions were coordinated there wasn't a secret room where people were you know were were were running them it was just that there there was a moment when if you looked around the world you could see autocracy Inc having its impact on us and and seeking to change the way the world works as a group so there was October the 7th that was Hamas Hamas is an Iranian proxy that was an Iranian project later on you had the hotties and others shooting at American ships in the Red Sea um you had you know at the same time there was a moment when the Venezuelan dictator Nicholas Maduro was talking about invading Guyana um you had you know you had a surge of Russian mercenary operations going on in Africa um you had these very strange um you know you you very very strange migration movements um I'm I'm talking you now from Poland uh you know right at about that time we had a series of um you know immigrants were coming to the Polish bu Russian border which is for his many decades had been a completely empty area it's actually a there's a forest there and not much happening uh and and and the B Russian dictator began literally importing importing people from the Middle East from Iraq and from other places from Syria importing them bringing them to belus taking them in buses to the border and sort of pushing them across the border um in large numbers uh partly as a way to destabilize Poland and to create another new immigration crisis inside the European Union um so you could see all these things were happening at the same time there were these multiple attempts going on either to destabilize uh European and American democracies or to destabilize the Middle East or to prevent Ukraine from having weapons to defend itself I mean there was a this is a this is a a joint project you know there there were there were different different actors doing many different things at the same time creating this sense of poly crisis but but most of it is due to the to the actions of a few countries so you've been asking a similar question I think since at least 2016 uh if we look at the what you describe here how MGA republicans in Congress uh acting under the instructions of Donald Trump blocked them majority do you think whether it's Donald Trump being used as an asset by pu Putin um or Maga Republicans who block the aid to Ukraine were they just being manipulated like marionettes or were any of them participating do you think more wittingly that's a hard question to answer so Donald Trump acts in the interests of Donald Trump and he does things that he thinks are good for him um you know he doesn't you um you know I think it's hard to describe him as somebody's puppet I don't think that's how his brain works um but he has also for a long time liked the idea of doing deals with dictators he he likes and admires dictators he liked his meeting with the dictator of sou of of North Korea um he talks about openly has done so many times about his admiration for Xi Jinping he likes the fact that Xi Jinping is very powerful and he controls a very large country um he likes and admires Putin you know maybe you remember the body language of him meeting Putin in which you know the president of the United States looks like he's cowering in front of yeah this little tiny Russian um you know tinpot dictator um so he and he those are the people who he likes admires he doesn't like doesn't like the idea of the us being part of a democratic Alliance or being part of the democratic world he doesn't see himself or or America as the leader of That World um he would rather be doing de deals and and my sense is that his he has some belief that he will do some kind of deal with Putin I mean he says that frequently and I think it's it's true that he believes it I mean whether it's true that there could be a deal is is is a lot less likely I mean certainly there couldn't there's I don't see right now how there would be a deal that could protect the sovereignty of Ukraine but uh you know but so he has some idea of himself as a dealmaker and it seems that he wanted to block the aid because he imagined that when he was going to be president he would do some deal he would weaken Ukraine and then you know he then again what I was told and this you know this this accept this is a rumor and gossip rather than something that I've reported on but I was told that he eventually relented because there were some fears that Ukraine might lose this you know this summer if it didn't have us Aid because the Europeans although they have now by now given as much as we have aren't producing weapons and ammunition fast enough or or not yet fast enough maybe by next year they could um and so he and so relented so I think that was his motivation um republicans in Congress you know there are a lot of you know some of them are some of them I think are manipulated by Russian propaganda there's a there's a story um there was a story for example on social media that was completely false and verifiably false that that um president zilinsky of Ukraine had bought two yachts and there were pictures of the Yachts were on you know I Twitter I don't maybe on Truth social and other other forms of media you know of course president Lind doesn't have any Yachts but but the but the story went wide enough and spread far enough and was tweeted and posted by enough people that when the arguments about Aid to Ukraine were being made in the US Senate Republican Senators said why are we sending this Aid to Ukraine when the president is going to use it to buy Yachts so that means that there is influence so that that so that these propaganda campaigns do have an effect so if they if they can affect US senators and change their thinking about about America's Aid policy then that's that's a huge success you know then they they've they've they've achieved something so there there's that piece of it I mean there's another piece which is to do with there is so much dark money circulating in our political system and um the you know the fact that people don't have to there you know whether it's Think Tank funding or pack funding there's so much of it that can be hidden um you know that there is probably Russian money in the system somewhere wouldn't surprise me at all I mean it's so easy to to hide money in US politics that it would be it would be really shocking to me if the Russians hadn't found either through Americans or you know through Russian Americans or through others um ways of donating to people's campaigns I would be I would be amazed if they hadn't done that um yeah I mean you you point out that I think it's one in five condos and Trump owned or Trump branded properties are owned by Anonymous owners that's another that's a that's a slightly separate thing I mean that so then the the way that Trump was in a business for his entire career that was heavily impacted by you know by what what you call it dark money or black money or hidden money you know because it was pop because it was so easy for so long to buy residential property in the United States through Anonymous companies that meant that condos in Trump Tower or any any any Trump property were being bought by Anonymous companies so who were the companies were those Russians were they Chinese were they Malaysians I mean were they were they Americans does Trump know who they are and maybe he does I mean we we have no idea um you know all of that you know just just the existence of that little loophole in American law meant that it was possible to give money to Donald Trump in a way that was not transparent um and of course this absence of transparency is a characteristic of autocracy Inc I mean the autocratic world is untransparent you know we don't know how much money Putin has or whether it's true as an Italian told me last weekend that he has a huge house in Italy that he periodically visited I mean you know that we we have no we can't find out we don't know you know um and and that's that's an enormous flaw in our own system yeah now last question about autocracy Inc you suggest toward the end of the book that in order to fight against autocracy it shouldn't necessarily be thought of as and you you've mentioned this as a war against China or Russia per se so much as a war against autocratic behaviors wherever they're found how is that kind of a war waged and won so you know partly it's waged through fighting kleptocratic practices partly it's waged through and this is this is a longer conversation but through putting transparency into the algorithms that run social media um part partly it's waged through um making Americans conscious of what's at stake I that's actually why I wrote this book and why I was so Keen to have it out uh before before the US election um and why I'm I I'm I'm really happy to talk about it with anybody who wants to talk about it because having people be aware of what's at stake and why and how we're being challenged and how the autocratic world is influencing us I think um you know I think that the you you can't fight something until you have identified it and named it and until you know what it is and and um so so so part of the part of the answer is is that it's it's explaining to people what's at stake and also helping people um helping PE well let me say it differently part of it is also about finding new ways to make the argument for Democratic ideas and liberal ideas and for the rule of law you know we in our country became very complacent about democracy because we were so successful for a long time I mean certainly since the second world war but even more so since end of the Cold War and it felt like we were successful and so we didn't have to do anything in particular to make sure that we remained a democracy we didn't really question our we were sort of bored by conversations about NATO and Democratic alliances we didn't really think about what those meant um and I think now is the time to begin taking all those things seriously take nothing for granted you know don't take your system for granted don't take your alliances for granted um because almost everything can be challenged and if people aren't engaged in public life and if they don't um if they don't have you know if they don't have goals then uh then you know you know then then we then things could change very fast so I I do want to indulge in um maybe it's not so myopic of a question because it it it is relevant and folks who are listening um have these conversations all the time I have friends in Bucks County for example Bucks County Pennsylvania a pivotal County in a swing state and uh people in my Bible study for example um you know we're we're in a key us house district so just as an example there might be somebody in that household that is has Fox News on all the time or or uh one of the oann on all the time perhaps that person isn't persuasive persuadable but perhaps their spouse is um so for the spouse or their uh child who's a voting age now who might be here overhearing you know um talking points like well if if Trump was in office you know uh Hamas never would have attacked Israel or Putin never would have invaded Ukraine um what do you say maybe not to the person who's tuned in to oann hearing those talking points all the time but what do you say to your maybe neutral persuadable um the the persuadable spouse uh that that you're having a kitchen table conversation with I mean it depends what that person is interested in so I you know I don't want I don't want to give generic advice because you would you would you would you know but I you can certainly I think talking about the attempt to steal the election in 2020 um I think the you know the danger that there could be another attempt to steal an election in 2024 um you know the risks to our democracy just from that I mean is a that you know that's a good starting point I mean I think at the time of January the 6 I think most people understood what it was it's true that there's been a lot of forgetting and a lot of propaganda about it since then but um you know if you can bring people back to their original shock um when they saw you know a mob sacking the US capital I don't know if the first time since whenever 1812 or maybe maybe it happened dur this no I don't think so it must have been 1812 yeah you know um so that I I would think that would be I mean I would also draw people's attention to um people the the degree to which people around Trump are fascinated by the autocratic world and its ideas and you know Victor Orban who is someone who I he he's more the subject of my previous book rather than this one but um who is someone who was an elected leader who then dismantled his country's institutions kind of Peace by peace and created what's in effect a one party State um he's very influential around Trump um he's very influential in this project 202 2025 which is the Heritage foundation's very detailed description of what a second Trump term would look like I mean when I look at that it looks to me like a Hungarian project I mean you know ask people do you want to be influenced by by by what's actually a poor and rather unsuccessful small state in Central Europe is that the you know is that the right influence for America is it for is that who we should be looking to for our ideas I mean there so that you know they're they're they're they're they're pieces of the of the story that you can look at I think there also but there's also a positive story I mean there's so much that Americans have to be proud of um there's so much that we've achieved and we've come such a long way in our history and reminding people of that you know asking you know do you want to give up on our achievements do you want to turn backwards I mean that's what I like about the current um Democratic campaign is that slogan you know we've we we've come to a point where we have so you know we have so much equality people have rights um you know there's so much more to do but do you want to do you want to fight the fight against the people who want to go back or do you want to keep moving forward and and make things better I mean I mean I don't know these are these are just ways in which arguments that I would have with with my friends yeah so H how are you feeling about uh the state of the campaign and and how the elections are looking for 2024 so I do not do predictions because I don't feel that I have the talent I don't have a crystal ball no rank prognostication on your report come on I mean I I mean I you know I can tell you the cliche thing which is that it's it is it is amazing how much the election has changed in the past few weeks um you know as as we're now speaking it's just a few weeks after the after after Harris was um named named as a candidate and you know she turned out to have a lot more political Talent than she was credited for both in the way in which she sewed up the the nomination and the way she seemed to be immediately ready to launch a campaign um I'll tell you what I what I like about the campaign and I'll tell you what I think is dangerous about it so the what I like is the the way in which you now have a group of Democrats who are trying to take back the word Freedom you know freedom is a word that is used in American public life in a lot of different ways and this by the way is a topic of a narrative podcast that I'm I've been working on will will come out in September um it's called autocracy in America it's being published by the Atlantic um and one of our episodes is about the ways in which the word Freedom has been used in American history and sometimes in particular you know it has been used as freedom from the state freedom to do what you want fre Freedom even to oppress people freedom to break the law I mean you think about the wild west or you think about um you know um you know other Lawless moments of American history and sometimes freedom is used in that way um but there is also another way Freedom can be used and it's about you know think you know are are people are people who live in a lawless State free you know of course they're not you know if if there's no laws if there's no institutions then strongest person wins and everybody else is a slave or is a um you know or a subject to them you know so real Freedom depends on people being healthy and being educated and being you know able to make their own decisions and H being empowered in various Ways by by by public and and private institutions um and I very much like the fact that the the Harris Waltz campaign has tried to recapture that meaning of the word Freedom um and I you know and I hope that it um I I hope that it continues of course the danger is what I don't want this us election to be is a contest between these different versions I mean I don't want um you know really this should this is not a partisan issue you know we should all want that kind of freedom and it should be something that Republicans and Democrats and people on the right and people on the left agree about and so you know I I I don't want this to become freedom and the idea of it to become a to become a political issue but but but I but I I admire the speed with which they went with that idea which is quite a deep idea and and began using it making ads around it and and and giving speeches about it now this um I have just a few more questions and this one admittedly might require a whole other podcast conversation or just regular conversation but you you have a way of keeping a really wide lens um focusing so much um on on what's happening around the world world uh and there really is a lot that that's happening are there certain stories that you're paying particularly close attention to uh what's happening right now yes so I actually am one of these people who believes that to understand the really big picture you also need to have some deep knowledge of specific um small things and I do do in in my journalism and history actually as well I do a lot of very granular reporting talking to people on the ground and or you know talking to it's not just kir starmer it's like you know um you know I I did several pieces from Ukraine in which I talk to Civil Society actors or soldiers or so on um but yeah I'd say there are a few key I I still think the war between Russia and Ukraine I I think is is one of the defining clashes of our era and the result will will will affect the way the world works for a long time afterwards and so I think the um we're speaking at the moment when the ukrainians are still occupying a part of Russia this is a huge story that's I think been underplayed in the US you know understandably because of the election campaign and other concerns um but that's a i i watch that very closely um they're actually in in the US there are some House and Senate races I'm watching closely I'm very interested in a group of people in Congress who came in in 2018 very idealistically as is Abigail spanberger in Virginia um Alysa lkin in in Michigan and um few others whose whose campaigns I try to follow I'm interested in what happened to that generation of idealistic sometimes veterans sometimes former National Security people who went to Congress because they felt you know move to do it after the election of trump so there there there are a few granular granular stories that I'm that I'm interested in well I mean you know I follow things like what happens in mdova which is a very specialist interest which I also think is one those keys to the to the to the region um uh you know there there there you know you can you can there's it's very true that there are a lot of big stories you can understand by looking at the local version of them yeah I mean you know understanding the politics of your neighborhood or your town or your city can Al can often help a lot in in understanding the world I went last year I went and spent some time in Tennessee which is not a state I knew well at all um and just to use it as an example it's it's a it's a red state that used to be a purple state right so it was a and the the the title of the piece was is Tennessee a democracy and of course slightly tongue and- cheek I mean of course Tennessee is democracy it's part of the United States and people have rights and so on but there are also ways in which um the Republican party in Tennessee has so locked up the institutions um and made them so inflexible that it's hard to see how you could change them and again I told that story very in a very granular way I went to some count I talked to a lot of people in you know who are doing doing politics in in in in Nashville and around there um and I think sometimes there's a I think almost anywhere you live if you you know if you get involved in politics I mean actually you know a minute ago you said well if you're interested if you care about the election you should talk to your friends who um you know are their spouses but you should also you know learn about your local politics you join a party or work on a campaign or work on a you know or not necessarily political campaign work on a you know work on a local issue or go to a town hall I mean Often by understanding how how the political argument is happening in your space that will that ex that will explain for you something about the bigger picture yeah no it's true and as I've gotten to know our elected officials here and our candidates here um it's um encouraging to know that just because they have an r or a d or an i in some cases before their name it doesn't determine everything about them I happen to be um very much opposed to our us US Congress member who's a republican but partly because he voted to overturn elections in two other states without even understanding what he was Voting to overturn um and that that was a non-starter for me uh when early on uh when he was elected um that said there's a uh a very inspiring uh young leader who's running for state senate uh the state legislature here who's also a republican but I'm hoping that she represents the future if there is a future of that party or at least the future of fiscal conservatives uh and social Libertarians uh so yeah to your point I've gotten to know some folks here and um maybe it's because I'm I'm an independent I'm not you know but that's that's a again that's that's part of another uh conversation I don't want to keep you here too long so I'll just ask you a couple more questions one is what we call the tpnr question um what do you think each of us can do to be able to share space with have better conversations with and perhaps even nurture relationships with people across our differences so that's people who have different backgrounds and beliefs than we do get their news from different sources than we do how can we do better at talking politics and religion without killing each other or is it even possible I think the best way to do it is a version of what I just said so is to be involved in in organizations that are doing something I mean you know just arguing with people is you know sometimes it works but often it doesn't but working together to build a new new community center or to clean up some polluted river or you know there there there are um you know fi finding finding institutions and organizations and places where you can work with people I think that's the best way to uh that's the best way to overcome the Gap I mean it's always by doing things that you learn things um and sometimes the just talking is not enough yeah yeah um no my I have cousins in Israel that were part of this project uh and it there's a similar story that was covered on a CBS Sunday Morning Show um about building uh building sewage systems that uh crossed um Palestinian neighborhoods and primarily Jewish uh Jewish neighborhoods um and uh they became friends in in um the process of building building sewage they they had to figure out where their had to go they had to figure out their you know so um that's uh that's one way to do it is is shared projects across our differences so I won't make you ask me any questions because I know you've had had a long unless you really feel compelled to do so um I I won't make you do it but do do you want to or I was just gonna say you you you know you said you started this by saying oh you know I have the wrong career I should be asking but actually isn't your career asking questions and why do you like doing it I mean it's you know I know why I like doing it but well yeah I it is it is now maybe maybe I should have said I'm I I was late to the the game I I I wish I I understood this um in my late teens or early 20s but yeah I I I've been following folks um certain people's work for a long time and I'm also I don't know if burdened is the right way to put it but in a way I am burdened by questions questions I have about the world um so the opportunity to have actual conversations with people like you people like David Brooks like David French it's it's so encouraging to me Mona Chan um there's so many people um my friend Lisa Sharon Harper who just came on for a two-part conversation um it it's such um it's so enriching albeit challenging at times to be able to have conversations with the people whose where the conversation's been going one way um you know if I listen to an interviewer or if I read a book I have questions so it's such a gift to be able to ask those questions directly and to be in conversation with some of these folks now and in in some instances actually have um be able to call them Palace you know that's it's it's pretty cool so that's uh that's what keeps me going anyway so be before we go uh tell us the best place to buy autocracy Inc definitely definitely worth the read how to keep an eye out for autocracy in America the podcast is coming out with the Atlantic and how do we make sure to stay up to date with all the great work that you're doing well autocracy in is available at a bookstore or a book website near you it's pretty easy to find it's a it's now in hardback but it's quite a small cheap hardback uh it's also in kimille and ebook and I read the ebook so it's my voice you'll listen to for better for worse um uh I sorry the audio sorry excuse me the audible book the the the audio book is is me um uh you can you can follow me on various forms of social media um I still have a Twitter account although I have my doubts about Twitter because I I just want to stay there and keep flying the flag but um you can follow me on other on on threads or on um LinkedIn or on Facebook um uh which I use even more rarely actually but I'm still there um and you can read me at the Atlantic and you should really subscribe to the Atlantic because I have great colleagues and it it has they're a really wide range and the Atlantic you know as in as its prin as it's you know organizing principle now publishes material that goes from the center left to the center right so you are guaranteed to find stuff that you find annoying um but you might also find stuff that you like you know if you're anywhere along that political spectrum and you know people people from you know are always writing to me how could the Atlantic publish this outrageous thing and I say look you know there's a you know you know if you were of the opposite point of view you'd find something different outrageous but so I think it's one of the you know aside from the you know leaving aside the fact that I work there rather I think it's one of the great institutions right now if you're interested in this you know in this in in Crossing in Crossing divides and then finally autocracy in America is a podcast that I've made together with my friend and colleague Peter panv and it's a five-part narrative podcast and it's coming out in September and I think the trailer is going to be available soon like within days um and it will be you can find that on the Atlantic website and also wherever you get your podcasts so all those things are available all the things all the things and we'll be sure to put all those links in the show not not all the links but easy ways to find you in your work and um autocracy Inc and autocracy in America oh one more thing sorry I have I also have a substack I have a substack and I publish I put all my Atlantic work make it all available on the substack as well so oh cool one I'll be sure to put the substack link in the show notes as as well um we covered a lot but is there anything important we haven't discussed you'd like to add I mean there's so many important things we haven't talked about this too long a list but I think that was great thank you very much I really appreciate you taking the time I know this is uh you you've been putting in the extra hours uh so I really appreciate you squeezing in some time for us and this was a real real real treat for me thank you and as always if you dig what we're doing here remember to follow the show write that revieww and now you can join the conversation on on patreon patreon.com politicsand religion check it out subscribe get the mug get the tote get the swag uh really excited about that now go talk some politics and religion with gentleness and respect and have a great week [Music]