'We are witnessing the EXTRAORDINARILY rapid CRUMBLING of TRUST in Starmer' | Jacob Rees Mogg

welcome back to state of the nation the American philosopher Ralph Waldo Emerson once said the louder he talked of his honor the faster we counted our spoons nothing illustrates this point better than the moment Tony Blair said this to John Humphries in 1997 of the eckl affair never do anything either to harm the country or anything proper I never have I think most people who have dealt with me think I'm pretty straight sort of guy and I am a pretty straight sort of guy and of course it wasn't long before this pretty straight sort of guy found that he was manipulating the country with the help of tabloid journalist Alistar Campbell into the war in Iraq the moment any politician starts to harp on about his honor integrity honesty or using platitudes like this we've changed the labor party returned it to service and to replace that politics of performance with the politics of service and one of the big changes if there's a labor government is polit politics returned to service turn the AG on an era of Politics as noisy performance and return it to Public Service you know it's time to start counting the spoons as the prime minister or perhaps we should call him the Reverend starmer said in his speech today he was asked about his promise to implement an honesty and integrity commission with an independent chairman that could launch inquiries as it says independently there's a commitment that we made we will stick to it I don't have a precise date I do think it's important uh that it can initiate its own um uh inquiries if you like because that has been an inhibitor uh in the past um so uh that commitment stands uh as soon as we've got a date I'll give you um a date oh he'll give you a date isn't that very kind of him but his own Chancellor Rachel Reeves is already being accused of breaching the ministerial code after the appointment of a labor donor treasury his independent advisor on ministerial interests sir lorri Magnus could be granted the power to LA lach an inquiry immediately this has not happened so when the Prime Minister says he will give you a date he makes it sound as if there's some longwinded processes if he's got to set up a committee there work to be done no he could whilst watching this now dictate a memorandum to say that sori has the authority to launch independent inquiries and that would be the power of the advisor because it is something entirely within the remit of the Prime Minister what said in the Downing Street G Garden was prizewinning humbug but what we're witnessing is the extraordinary rapid crumbling of trust within 50 days of sakur st's ascent to power but this is not particularly surprising sakurama flip-flopped on just about everything from Jeremy Corbin to a second referendum do you remember Jeremy Corbin was his friend and then he'd never been a friend with Jeremy Corbin the second referendum or the movement to um fre shamim mbum he changed his mind on that he's now flip-flopping on the question of honor and integrity it's reminiscent of this glorious moment in the 1942 classic Casablanca everybody's to leave here immediately this Cafe is closed until further notice clear the room at once how can you close me up on what ground I'm shocked shocked to find that gambling is going on in here you're winning sir oh thank you very much everybody out at one like Captain RAR like Captain RAR sakir starma was shocked he even used the word in his speech earlier today at what he discovered he was shocked in that same squeaky tone of voice that indicates he knew what was going along all the time and is taking us for mugs as ever let me know your views VIA mail MOG atgb news.com but with me now is Times Colonist Melanie Phillips um Melanie first of all thank you so much for joining me and you put this I thought very clearly in your article in the times this morning even for those of us who are not natural labor supporters it's a pretty rapid descent into SAS and hypocrisy isn't it it is indeed uh the hypocrisy is really quite something um since uh sakir stama had said that he was going to end cronyism um and during the last Labor government during the last conservative government um he and other members of the labor party uh poured Audia over the conservative Administration uh for SAS and cronyism and so on and so forth and here we find that they are uh they've what is it like not even two months since the general election they're absolutely mired in it uh with a number of appointments being made which are extremely dubious in that they have been people who have been either labor party uh workers or activists or donors uh who have been given access to Downing Street in the case of Lord Ali a donor uh or in the case of several quite senior appointments to White Hall um uh people who have been um uh labor activists and and and members now you know governments in the past have taken on people from outside White Hall as political advisers but there was a very clear distinction made between them and civil servants political advisors were political they were political appointments they were on I think short-term contracts and it was very clear that they were you know their job was political whereas the civil service is famously and rather wonderfully um supposed to be neutral and impartial because the same civil servants the same officials have to provide the same service to uh governments of whatever stripe and they cannot do so if if they are compromised and what we've seen in this last few weeks is people who are highly compromised by their previous association with the labor party being taken on as civil servants one of the things I was struck by in your piece was um you quote Tony Blair saying that the labor part is the political wing of the British people which seems to me an enormously entitled thing to say a very arrogant view of the world which then means of course you can appoint who you like because it's what the British people want we're their political Wing we are the Masters now well very much so it's certainly arrogant but it's also I think frightening is what I said in my article this morning because um if you say that the labor party is the British people it's the political arm of the British people then it justifies an approach to government that casts political dissent as an offense against democracy itself and it was this attitude by uh by uh Tony Blair was borne out by comment that I saw with great interest by Pat mcfaden who's the currently the minister in charge of uh of the cabinet office and he said appropo Lord Ali's Downing Street pass nobody knows why he was issued this pass he did nothing to Merit such a pass it's that sort of pass to Downing Street is confined normally to civil servants and politicians anyway Pat mcfaden said quote but he does Lord Ali but he does bring a huge amount to the the labor party he was an important part of the election campaign in other words Pat mcarton couldn't see anything wrong in Lord Ali being given a pass normally reserved for civil servants and political people uh because uh he was and members of parliament I should say uh because he had done so much for the labor party in other words just like Tony Blair saying the labor party is the political arm of the British people for Pat mcfaden and I suspect for the majority of the cabinet and for K starma there is no distinction to be made between party and government and that is terrifying that is that is the that is you know that is has the seeds of a totalitarian attitude to government um so what are they doing about this because starma made a great song and dance about improving the powers of um ethics within Downing Street and there's sori Magnus um the adviser to the prime minister he hasn't said anything his predecessors Lord G and so were always on resignation watch and um constantly getting wound up about their position but we haven't heard anything from salari have we uh not as far as I know no but then you see the whole business of whiteall Ethics is is quite is quite surreal really uh you have uh one of these uh questionable appointments is somebody uh who has been appointed to the the uh the ethics uh Department as it were of the cabinet office and this uh this whole sort of questionable um elision uh between political appointments and Civil Service uh officials uh really got going as far as the labor party is concerned uh when uh Sue gray a very uh significant figure in the cabinet office and herself a former head of the ethics division of the cabinet office was poached by KIA starma uh to be his chief of staff and there was you may recall um quite a row about this because you know there are rules governing uh civil servants just leaping out of uh White Hall into a political party taking with them uh the secrets of government and uh after you know a considerable amount of toing and throwing there was a kind of uh uh period in which um you know she was kind of uh neither one thing nor the other which was considered to be just about okay um but nevertheless it still left a bad taste in the mouth and so you have at the very heart of the starma administration a fundamental um really questionable attitude to ethics in White Hall in which the people involved in ethics in White Hall supposedly are themselves caught up in this Highly Questionable Behavior well thank you very much Melanie for putting it so clearly and eloquently both in your column in the times and with us this evening uh with me now is our favorite socialist the former labor MP step pound um Stephen it's pretty grumpy isn't it Jacob Jacob no it isn't um let's get a couple of things absolutely straight let's let's drag this into the daylight and get away from this ghastly conspiracy theory this armor geddon that people seem to be promulgating but look Lord Ali is a member of parliament he had a temporary pass for 21 days and that's finished and it's gone that's over compared to you remember David Cameron appointing 11 people as special advisor Boris Johnson the veritable Sultan of SLE putting people into the House of Lords with no experience let me sorry well Lord Ali himself was put into the House of Lords age 34 was a very young appointment at the time by T Blair with an extremely impressive back back history yeah one of the most successful television producers this country huge huge wealth owner owner for this country um but that it's very unusual to give passes to Downing Street to random peers who are donors that people get past Downing Street because they've got a specific job to do well and you know he had one briefly for 21 days but look the fact when you talked earlier on about stinking into sinking into a stigan swamp of SLE it's good alliteration but it simply isn't true look the reality is if you look at the number of appointments that have been made this is not remotely comparable to the echon affair in which the lab party was completely culpable or anything like as it happened under under Cameron or Johnson and God Alone knows what the appointment of special advisers is a clearly different matter I'm not criticizing the appointment of special advisers it's pretending these people are civil servants and getting them a full-time Civil Service paid jobs this chap in the treasury who's a labor party activist and donor well she's actually a former bank of England special an expert within the bank of England as far as I'm concerned the more experts we have in the treasury the better Heaven Knows the country is in a bad St Bank of England's got everything wrong that's slightly different maybe subject for another debate the more reason for getting people from the bank of it's you see the high mindedness of starma that I'm not against people be appointed politically I'm not against Prime Ministers using patronage that's part of the job of a prime minister but stal was so high minded about it and why hasn't he given authority to salari which he could do now he could do before we finish broadcasting to do these independent inquiries I mean you know I'm sure he will because in all honesty he's promised to actually bring the this sort of the disinfectant of sunlight he's fallen back on that classic politicians delaying tactic the doctrine the time I'm sorry You' have done it today done the he been dealing with the riots he's been dealing with the Notting Hill Carnival he's been dealing with endless things this takes two seconds you have the authority to do it yeah and he hasn't done it he said he took longer answering the question about why he hadn't done it than it would have taken him to do it well look I think you you make a point about um hypocrisy well I'm sorry I mean you know this business about the helicopter today a lot of people said that that was sort of performative hair Shir ISM I think what this really is is someone who's been in power for 54 days desperately trying to present a different image to the nation in symbolically in the Downing Street Garden which to be honest was an absolute swamp of SAS under Johnson and I I give the guy a chance well this new image is part of it do you not think he looks very beautiful now he spent all his money on his new image and his new spectacles and so I doubt he spends as much on his Beau Jacob I doubt he spends as much on his suits as you do but I spend my own money on them indeed you do Ian if wish to send in subscriptions to my suits I'd be very grateful but but I don't have a slash fund for my suits uh and he has a suit slash fund do you think his makeover was worth all this money does he look so much more handsome do you think in your distinguished view I there's no way on God's green earth I'm going to get into the comments about the beauty or not the pulchritude of the leader of this country the Prime Minister whether he's handsome or beautiful or not I he just paid a lot of money for it by I'm sorry my wife and my daughter may have a view on that I do not next time you come on you must tell tell us what what your wife and daughter think about this um but it's the hypocrisy that is the issue you see so where where is the hypocrisy Jacob oh and that he attacked the Tories for doing less of what he is doing no they they did much much more no no we did not make in in numerical terms they did far far more we did not make s Service appointments of cranes well hang hang on a second me Matt hanok gave massive great contracts for PPP to people he met down the PB they put baroness moan in the house of hold on on Matt hanock you know it's untrue that um contracts are not awarded by ministers all all ministers did if only that were true it is true yeah it is true all ministers do is say there is this company that's interested in bidding they do not award contracts and that's really clearly established I was actually briefly minister of government um efficiency and I had responsibility for procurement there was no way I could have given a contract for as much as a pencil let alone for I'm sorry we we had at least one byelection if you if you remember in Herer where a a minister a a secretary of state now had actually been pushing for a particular um biochemistry company in Northern Ireland as a Min a former minister no no at the time and you you know who I'm talking about want to going about yeah I think former Minister you mean he wasn't a minister at the time he was pushing for the he was secret of State for Northern Ireland that he had been secret of State for Norther Ireland but he wasn't doing it as a minister he was lobbying and that was improper so one minute he's a secretary of state minute he Caesar's wife is that right I just don't see that no this is I mean I'm not in favor of former ministers lobbying but this was not Minister but this is not a minister awarding a contract to get the facts right which is important so it's the hypocrisy I think that British politics is pretty honest M and that what starma has done is Poison the Well by his false accusations against the Tories and serves him right that it's come back to B him well I I disagree with that I mean we have North coach TR in this country we have a a an independent Civil Service don't forget in most countries in Europe particularly in France they have a thing called the cabinet system when the entire civil service changes with the when the government changes as we move over I'm afraid we're going to have to stop but thank you Stephen