Trump CAN'T Run Away From His Abortion Mess (w/ Margaret Hoover) | The Bulwark Podcast

abortion is the number one issue in in in for democrats for Independents um and for a certain portion of Republican women and by the way white Republican women have not voted for a Democrat this is just like fun fact since Bill Clinton okay and this is the year with abortion at the top of the ticket that a Democrat has the possibility of winning white women and so I what's happening is Trump knows he has to go to the middle and what's happening is he it is just not believable like there's just no way this is ever going to be credible because he has said too many times and all you have to do is find three of them and put them on a loop I'm the guy who overturned roie weight yeah you know he takes credit for it he's the one who did it like I I don't think there is any way he can persuade people that any of his moves around the outside are going to change that fact in that position [Music] hello and welcome to the bull workk podcast I'm your host Tim Miller it is Labor Day weekend 2024 where does the time go uh I'm just so delighted to be here uh with the host of PBS's firing firing line with Margaret Hoover she has a new documentary airing on PBS throughout the fall calling counting the vote which I watched the other night she also wrote a book in 2011 beating me by about a decade about how the GOP was on the wrong course called individualism how a new generation of conservatives can can save the Republican party it's Margaret Hoover what's up Margaret I think I stand by every word in the book except the subtitle yeah the possib I think generation of Republicans Tim that's that would be you and me and I don't think we save the save the Republican party yeah I don't think that that happened um but uh it was it was a noble effort um at least you were trying you know we we we were trying we correctly identified the problems and uh you know the elders didn't want to take our Solutions oh well all right well I have three clips from your Bill O'Reilly days that I've saved for the end of the podcast no I'm just Jo I'm just joking you know I actually teaser I might actually have him back on Firing Line oh really ah he has a couple books coming out and I feel like it's like a full circle I think you should I would I would tune in for that um I he actually pitched it to me I think you should do it moment yeah some people be like don't platform or whatever it's good for these guys to take some heat that taking heat is good it's like free platforming is the bad thing I think that some that somehow this thing got warped during 2016 when like CNN was playing Trump's empty Podium you know and playing Trump speeches like two hours worth and and they would only talk about Jeb like if if it was about how our polls were going down or how Trump was attacking his wife and and then people like we shouldn't platform these people it's like no you should challenge them like you just you shouldn't give them free platforms like that's it correct correct and by the way you've done a really good job of that on this program since you've taken over from Charlie and I've really appreciated that thank you Mar I'm afraid to tangle and to engage and you do it respectfully um and you know that's what we need more of back at you we're going to talk about a little bit about interviewing these people at the end to have a little interviewing tactic convo but um we need to do some news uh before we get to that and to your documentary um which is which is really good and important I should say so people should definitely stick around for it um kala last night gave her first joint interview uh with Tim wals um it was with CNN and Dana Bash um I'm wondering what your impressions were can I tell you I uh didn't watch I watched it I watched it and uh I am so tickled and delighted by how she answered some of these questions I just feel like she's a gymnast who's just going off of the Vault and then sticking The Landing in a way that makes you so proud to be an American like when you're watching the I just I I thought she nailed the fracking answer look and by the way I am I did not share her positions on fracking or her sort of the development of her position on fracking but she's ended up in the right place and she's actually her answer is believable you know she when she said I actually cast the deciding vote as vice president on the leases for fracking right like like actually she did uh you know that's like that's believable like if I'm if I'm uh well I don't know maybe she's just changing her position for political purpos I'm like actually well no she I guess she has had that position for four years and I I just I actually think she made it totally believable her answer on immigration I mean she answered the migration criticism and then she tacked directly to where she should be which is that if I am president I will demand that that border bill that the Republicans scuttled come to my desk and I will sign it right I mean I just I thought she nailed it and my favorite part was the race question I mean danab bash basically said Donald Trump doesn't think you're black thinks you're Indian think you just became black you know it really a full opening for an identity politics grievance politician to just wallow in it and she said same old Playbook let's move on next question I got the audio to that let's listen to it it's so good I want to ask you about your opponent Donald Trump um I was a little bit surprised people might be surprised to hear that you have never interacted with him met him face to face that's going to change soon but what I want to ask you about is what he said last month he suggested that you happened to turn black recently for political purposes questioning a core part of your identity yeah any same old tired Playbook next question please that's it that's it that's it moving on nothing to see here just going to be the first female woman of color president of the United States and we're not going to talk about race and isn't that exactly how it should be like that actually if that is true that means we we're ready like let's just not make it an issue yeah um I thought that that was defly handled I did have one bone to pick with Dana on it I thought Dana was pretty good last night so um this is not this is not a pick on Dana moment uh but she she Begins by being like you know I was surprised you haven't met Donald Trump before I was surprised to learn that during our conversations you haven't met face to face and I was sitting on my couch with Tyler and I was like I'm aw surprised by that how is that possible and then I thought about it for two seconds and I was like oh wait I know why because Donald Trump didn't attend the ceremonial transition peaceful transition of power for the first time since the Civil War and he tried a violent coup and then he cried like a little baby and flew home you know with his binky to maralago to hang out with his emotional support cougars like that's that's why they haven't met any other any other time they would have met when they were doing a transition totally totally or any of the ceremonial I mean he didn't go to any of the funerals um for you know George H like he he just hasn't participated in any of the sort of ceremonial um uh decorum like the things that that you do as a post president um and you know for for for continuity of operations and just for the respectability of the office that's such a good point I hadn't even I had forgotten right right well people have it so that's I do think this is where Trump you know benefits from the soft bigotry of low expectations sometimes right where it's like you know you're that you don't you know you don't like say what really happened that is fair totally fair anyway I I agreed with your point on her move to the on her uh you know the Drudge headline was she races to the middle uh and how she kind of explained that I also good call out on how she cast the tiebreaking boat on on the issue uh on the fracking issue about adding additional leases and that was paired with a lot of the climate investment that they did in the ira I liked this line it's important to build consensus and find a common place of understanding where we could solve problems that's when that was as a response to being asked like why did you evolve on some of this stuff like her answer is I got in and I realized that to actually solve problems we need to build consensus I I think that's totally a refreshing and appropriate answer and it felt very Margaret Hoover too not you like it it's also but also it's demonstrated it's actually sort of putting her vice presidency in in a new frame right I I I will count myself as one of the people who as as recently as two months ago three months ago thought God Biden really needs a new VP like you know I I thought recently three months ago well is going to need a new candidate because Biden's going to die and we're going to need somebody who's going to be able to be the president because we didn't know Biden was not going to be the candidate right I mean about candid it was a candidate skills concern it was a candidate skills concern yeah and and actually I actually think what's happened is look being vice president I mean I just think it helps us think about what she's been doing for the last four years in a different way because the truth of the matter is going all the way back to the very first vice president of the United States John Adams the job is a terrible job it is a freaking Terri terrible job to be Vice President of the United States it is the most useless job the most powerless job you're just sitting around waiting for somebody to die and the only successful vice presidents are vice presidents who have figured out a way to be useful to their principle and I think there are examples of really excellent vice presidents I think Joe Biden was useful to Obama I think Dick Cheney was useful to George W bush I think vice presidents who are most successful are the vice presidents who actually know their way around Washington and can add value to their principles agenda and she has she was new to Washington she didn't really know I think and so I I but I think what what's happened over these last three and a half years four years is that she's she's been watching and she's been learning and she also now like she this gives her an opportunity to sort of recast those years and The Narrative of those years is her being sort of useless and floundering and not helpful actually like actually she was she was learning she was learning as she was like an apprentice right uh take that Donald Trump I think that's true that's good and and this is also true on foreign policy by the way I've been saying this for all year it's like she took that very seriously she went to multiple Munich security conferences and it's like under the radar right it's like she she's not making the doing the negotiations with BB right but like she had a lot of these foreign trips Biden wasn't making as many foreign trips travel limited bilateral meetings multilateral meetings where she was showing up representing the United States of America so people say well she didn't have any foreign policy experience I'm sorry she was vice president for four years like she got a ton of of international experience um yeah the other other thing the other news from the interview was she said she would put a republican in her cabinet um which Biden did not um and Trump obviously did not um put the Democrat in his cabinet I don't actually really care about this that much personally but other people do and I do think it's good signaling I don't know what do you what do you think I I think it it I what are we trying to do here Tim we're trying to win Suburban voters 10 20% of those Nikki Haley voters you know like we got to build a broad coalition to defend democracy here and if you're going to build a coalition yes but and by the way it's also like there's a history of this right there's a history of Reagan having a Democrat as candidate Bush having a Democrat as C his cabinet and and and Clinton I don't know who Clinton's Republican was but he did have one I know there were multiple Transportation secretaries from the other party in a row Obama had Le hood and Norman man bu had nor manetta bush had nor manetta right so but like that it is it's it's it is symbolic uh we're trying to win we're trying to win and um you know maybe it's even more than symbolic when it comes to some of these agencies I mean a lot of these agencies have you know make you know they they have a lot of power they have a lot of power over a lot of aspects of American life and uh I I do think it's important to build a broad Coalition okay my only nitpick really in the interview and it and it isn't even really a negative on C it's just it's projecting towards September 10th and the debate is um obviously she's building the stuff on the Fly and I'm just watching this as a comm's person who's been behind the scenes you have two briefing these people and thinking about the briefings and being on the interview side uh she was briefed on the defensive questions right why have you changed your mind on fracking we've talked about that on immigration she was comfortable she knew what she was going to say um the the Trump hits and and she was briefed on the obviously she was prepared with her smart and cheeky answer that we played earlier about the she turned black [ __ ] but um there weren't like the sharp prosecutor hits on Trump that I was open for and that act that actually takes practice and takes time and all this stuff you're building this plane on the Fly and Trump is Trump for all of his you know weirdness which we're about to get to um he has a lizard brain memory for like he's going to know the details of kamla's Oppo book right like that's the only thing that he can remember right he doesn't actually know anything about policy but he'll know the hits on her and so I I would I would like to just monitor like making sure that she's sharp on the the Trump contrast side of things don't you think she'll save that for the debates I mean this was a really this is a really important hurdle she had to clear like she had to be able to sit down and answer all these questions about her record and why her record now is different from her record when she ran as a progressive vice presidential candidate in 2020 and like I think she I think she cleared the hurdles uh for this interview but I I think you're asking for too much in the first interview that's fair that's fair I mean to the extent that they're building a PL a plane while they're flying it uh you know just let let us let us get through the first round of interviews and land stick the landing on them and uh I I think the prosecutorial comma who's GNA create the stark contrast between her and Trump which by the way we saw a lot in her first speeches right like I know how to prosecute criminals and I know how to you shut down fake universities and I'm the only person by the way you know she did do last night she said in her immigration answer I wrote this down she said I'm the only person in this race who has prosecuted transnational uh criminal organizations yeah right so there's a little bit of a contrast there again it wasn't you're right she didn't litigate the case she didn't prosecute the case against him but I feel like she really needed to answer these questions that otherwise the right because the right's now gonna have to come up with a whole new round of criticisms about her policies uh because she was able to answer these I think pretty effectively you know you all watch me on here every day you know that there are these certain pieces of clothing that I just keep coming back to even when I've got other options my little chamber shirts my little gay jeans having a high quality piece of clothing that feels great you just got 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about it and we're nitpick I'm nitpicking and I'm thinking about it I'm watching and what's her answer what's her perfect answer what she's gonna say and then um I listened to a clip of Donald Trump here's Donald Trump yesterday same day at a town hall I guess if you want to call it a town hall the moderator was Tulsi gabard and the questioners all seemed like plants to me but uh despite that he still gave this very genius you might even say answer about energy you take a look at bacon and some of these products and some people don't eat bacon anymore and uh we are going to get the energy prices down when we get energy down you know this was caused by their horrible energy wind they want wind all over the place but when it doesn't blow we have a little problem people don't eat bacon anymore because of wind and prices or something I have a lizard brain uh explanation I you do you know you can speak Trump you translate Trump I don't know I don't know it's like it's like a guess I'm sure the people who are better at this than me would would crack me be like no no no no what he was really doing is this but on some level it's like he just like knows the problems that he's supposed to hit he's supposed to hit energy he's supposed to hit inflation he's supposed to hit the economy right but he like confuses them okay right so so the bacon hit is an inflation hit but he was talking about energy and so he's doing the energy thing and then he just like switched like his his brain like was like when when went over to inflation instead of stay on energy so windmills bacon you know you got energy you got inflation it's just like it because it you know and he's also just kind of up there freestyling and you know it's it's fast Ball's lost a little bit of its you know its speed I if you're well as our Trump translator do you have you because I think I decoded the late great Hannibal Lector and what's happening there have you decoded that oh no I'd love to hear I think that and this is with the help of the internet I don't I'm not claiming that I'm I'm the person that that identified this but in his in the same thing where he's doing the jump he hears about Asylum Seekers being a problem and then he his brain goes to insane asylum and then he's like people they're letting people out of an insane asylum and they're coming to the country who do I know from an insane asylum all of my pop culture references are from 30 years ago oh wow Hannibal Lector and so I'm talking about how hanal so now the Asylum Seekers are are people eaters like Hannibal Lector I think that's what's happened he's he is not distinguishing between people seeking Asylum and people that are in and asaye Asylum I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm GNA mul that over for a little bit but I think you I I I I think you're you might be on to something I think you could be on to something just ma that um we had a crazy day with Trump yesterday on abortion as well but he does this interview and she's asking about the Florida abortion ban kind of says that they existing Florida law is too tight for him the six weeks and then kind of implies then that he would vote for the Florida referendum rather coming up and that referendum would bar any restrictions on abortion before viability and bar any restrictions on abortion if the health of the mother is at risk so pro-lifers say that basically that bars any restrictions on abortion because you can always say the health of the mother's at L at risk that would be the pro-e argument um so so then he backtracks on that via a statement where his spokesperson says he has has decided how he's going to vote on this referendum yet and then also in the same interview he seems to say that the federal government will start paying for everybody's IVF treatments which is going to be pretty pricey so what uh what do you think where where what's happening over there I mean I I he's I it's very clear that this this issue the abortion issue is one of the top issues in the election it's one of the top issues in Florida it's one of the top issues in New York it's one of the top is in Arizona it's that it's it this is the number one issue Democrats are running on then there's inflation then there's economy I mean I've seen certain Congressional polls in in random states that are not necessarily swing States abortion is the number one issue in in in for democrats for Independents um and for a certain portion of Republican women and by the way white Republican women have not voted for a Democrat this is just like fun fact since Bill Clinton okay and this is the year with abortion at the top of the ticket that a Democrat has the possibility of winning white women women and so I what's happening is Trump knows he has to go to the middle and what's happening is he it is just not believable like there's just no way this is ever going to be credible because he has said too many times and all you have to do is find three of them and put them on a loop I'm the guy who overturned roie Wade yeah you know he takes credit for it he's the one who did it he and you know of course obviously he didn't he appointed the justices who did it but whatever like he he just he does that short math that that qu you know that shortcut himself all the time and it's there's just no there's no back like I I don't think there is any way he can unring the Bell uh or or persuade people that you know any of his moves around the outside are going to change that fundamental um that that fact and that position yeah by the way then he gets in trouble when he does because then the far right is like what what are you saying I thought you know then they're he's going to depress turnout on the right right so he's just totally backed into a corner yeah I have there have been some people on the Evangelical right and I've gotten some texts about um you know from some Pastor friends about how uh there is some bubbling anger a little bit in that world for the first time in a while um I I'm kind of skeptical that that that that actually results in people not voting for him but maybe I I think it's something that's worth monitoring the thing with Trump is if if we really had a dictatorship in this country and it was just his whims that would desire the the decide the laws I'd be like who knows maybe like maybe he would want to just make abortion legal again and and pay for IVF because he doesn't care about proplate spending at all that's not something that he cares about he certainly doesn't really care about abortion he's probably paid for one and like so the problem is that that's not what he's running for he's running to be the head of a government that has a tons of staffers that are all going to be staffed and this is where it ties back into the project 2025 this is where the project 2025 thing kills them and there going to be people all over the government who are obsessed ly focused on restricting women's access to reproductive care right and so unless he completely say you know it doesn't really matter what his whims are right it's it's like unless he says no I'm only gonna H I'm only going to bring in people that are whatever Pro IVF and pro-choice you know then okay well then I we' listen to that but like that's obviously not going to happen well also if he wins right I mean in in the circumstance where Trump wins and you have a republican House of Representatives and this is a year where the how the Senate should be Republican uh you know and so if Trump wins then that you know then you have the life at consumption act right and then you have like these all these forget the administrative things on the outside that the project 2025 guys can staff I mean you actually can get legislation that will not not codify row C cify the opposite yeah um and and you know so the the abortion really is on the ballot actually it really is on the national ballot and um and it's not hyperbolic for you know this isn't like the really you know Progressive you know pro-abortion Advocate groups to to fearmonger I mean it actually is and I and I think that's why like when it is you see women turn out in the least expected and least likely places like Kansas and Kentucky and Ohio uh and and so this is this is real and you don't think that Mike Johnson would take a take a swing at this as one chance you know if they ended up having United government you better believe you would and and and uh should shout out Andrew Edgar who's who writes with our morning shots newsletter with Bill Crystal contacted the campaign about this earlier this week and was like okay but if that happened would he veto it and they don't they don't answer that just like he doesn't answer how he's going to vote on the referendum because they can't answer about what the truth is because it's politically untenable so yeah um with this takes us to before we get to the scary news of your documentary I guess your doc wasn't scary but the you know concerning the things to be things to be monitoring we'll just give people one little bit of candy before uh their holiday weekend and uh and that's some poll candy uh there's Bloomberg poll out I I'll just flag that Bloomberg polls were always a little bit better for Biden than some of the other public polls so you know these you throw you throw it all on the average but uh here's what Bloomberg's polls have the yesterday Harris plus eight in Wisconsin plus four in Pennsylvania plus four in Nevada plus three in Michigan plus two in Georgia plus two in North Carolina and tied in Arizona the thing that that really stands out to me there is that's three straight Georgia polls we have with her up which is an absolutely critical state for Trump to win if he wants to get to 270 so we're feeling good about that right um uh I'm not because I I don't good please temper people's exuberance I'm not like first of all exuberance CS you nothing Hillary Clinton was up 6% in 2016 at this point and I think Hillary sorry to interrupt you but just like as as an important fact when everybody's like oh we should be cheerleading the polls we should be cheerleading the polls we should have only hopium I have I have individual like examples of people who did not vote for Hillary who preferred her to Trump because they didn't like her Clinton baggage and they didn't think he had a chance right so why yeah do it yeah so so you know that it can backlash there can be a backlash if people feel too comfortable look where the polls are right now you know first of all I mean there there and there are still like there's so still so many problems with polling like I don't know if we're modeling the electorate correctly I mean frankly if we're modeling electric incorrectly it might be that you're under counting women um because I think you know to the extent that abortion really is on the ballot and all these places you know look I don't want to say there are places where these could be undercounting women and therefore the lead could be bigger but God wouldn't that be great the point is you have to run like you're behind if you want to win and with democracy on the ballot which I know you believe and I know the listeners of this podcast believe like we cannot pretend like we're winning we have to run like we're behind and we have to win and we have to win by humongous margins because the subject of my documentary which I know we're going to get to um like they're going to do the same Playbook again and if the only way to prevent the disaster from 2020 and the first non-p peaceful transition of power in American history the only way to prevent that again because all the fundamentals are the same there some we've done some tinkering from state to state we can talk about it but the fundamentals are the same The Playbook is the same the principle the principal is the same you know cast out on the outcome of the elections and make it harder to know the outcome quickly on Election night uh the more the more you do that the more doubt you cast like the only way to get around that is to win and to win big and if if you win big and you have a large margin at the Electoral College then we're not We're not gonna we're not going to see a repeat it's it's that thing that Obama said in his speech like we saw the first movie The sequel's always worse okay we don't want a worst Sequel and the only way to do that is to win big so pretend I think just don't don't sit rest on our Laurels don't look at the polls and think this is great keep charging ahead um because because that's that's the only way we're going to protect our democracy I know the Democrats will say it and I I hear it it is unfair it's like the Republicans have an electoral college Advantage already right so the Democrats need to win the popular vote not by one but by two or three to win the electoral college and then you kind of have to win by four or five actually uh to avoid the attempts to steal it right or attempts to object to it or create um you know create drama or violence I don't even think crazy I don't even think about it as National polling though I mean I really think about it as these states I mean we don't have a national election for for a president we have 50 state elections for electors that's what we have and and so we have to win in these Battleground States and we have to win by a lot in these Battleground states and and and they're going to try to if it's close in any of these Battleground States then then we're going to have a series of unfolding dramas uh that we need to be prepared for uh on the messaging front and the media front to you know we have to know what to expect on Election night and then sort of know where this could go and so that's that was actually the impetus for for my doc because I I could see all these states that had all these accounting problems and some of them fixed it but some of them didn't and they had four years to fix it and the ones that didn't fix it like shame on them but but we need to know so we know what to expect in Pennsylvania and Arizona and North Carolina um come election night come November 5th all right yeah let's get to your documentary well I think Bill Crystal summed it up the best in this newsletter this morning as he is want to do at this moment there's no cause for overconfidence and no reason for despair that's a big upgrade from Fourth of July to Labor Day there was a lot of reason to despair a lot of Despair in your voice then Tim like I would listen to your I would listen to you guys and I was like oh man like they're not making me feel better and normally they make me feel better I am not able I I look I I I don't have a good poker face or poker voice all right uh if I'm despairing people can tell so I'm happy that sometimes I make people feel better but it's only when I believe it uh uh the uh counting the vote documentary which I watched lot of Jeb which we're going to get to very excited about that um just as a side point but um just what what were your biggest takeaways from like why' you do the project you know what did you learn anything that was surprised you what was the biggest takeway yeah uh I did the project because I was I have never been one of these uh folks on the center right that felt that after January 6th we had really seen Donald Trump's true colors and he could never come back especially after the Senate failed to convict uh I always believed that he would be the nominee this time around I always nominate him like I I was really and so I've been always thinking through that lens all right if that's going to be the case what are we going to do to protect the election next time what are we going to do to protect sort of to make sure that we have a peaceful transition of power um and and one of the things that happened that was really really good in the 2022 cycle was uh was the reform of the Electoral count act um The Electoral account Reform Act did several things that uh uh will prevent kamla Harris from being in the position that Mike Pence was in um so for example they clarify that her role is totally ministerial right completely ministerial that's it she can't do anything she can't send b can't send a slative electors back um also rais the threshold in each of the houses the Senate and the house to 20% so you don't have one obor in the house and one objector in the Senate that can start objecting the election you have to have 87 members of the house and 20 US senators right now you could get 87 Republicans yeah the 87 in the house I was going to say you could get them you could get them but you also have to have 20 us you won't I mean you could in a worst case scenario get 12 Senators but you're not going to So 20% threshold in both houses to object to the counting of the ballots which is only ministerial by the way right you know is so these are this is really these are really positive improvements um but so then after after that was fixed I started thinking like well so then what's going to happen sort of with the counting right because the breakdown really was because it was covid because there were all these absentee ballots because the states didn't have the ability to process quickly Trump leveraged those hours of uncertainty at the end of the night where you know he supposedly was winning because they were counting the absentee ballots first but not the same day ballots and so you had these red mirages in all these states you know so so I went sort of state by state to look at who had fixed and lock tightened up their voting systems and their counting systems to make it better so that that doesn't happen again so that so that one party one side can't say this election was stolen or cast out or begin to sort of f these conspiracy theories because we're simply doing the counting and then I also just wanted to look at sort of all the conspiracy theories and just demonstrate and and show we actually have an extraordinarily safe incredibly transparent like the best voting system in the world the most transparent the most thorough the most clear the most audited the most and it's unbelievable we have essentially I said we had 50 state elections for electors but there are like 10,000 voting jurisdictions that administer their own elections with the most transparency and the most security uh around the world and and the thing I think that people I mean one of the things I don't know if you know this I don't know most people don't know 95% of our ballots in this country are recorded by paper ballot so like this notion that you can just like go hack and like you know that like oh we don't know what the algorithm is inside the Dominion voting machines like doesn't matter because we have paper trail 95% and the places where we don't have paper trail are like deep red states where we know the Republican one anyway or you know so so like Mississippi and Alabama but or as we've seen several times like my girl Tina Peters in Colorado where they are trying to to screw with it but the other way oh yeah like the actual voting fraud is on the right in order to show the Mike Lindell pillow guy whatever that that he his conspiracy theories are correct I mean it's crazy um so I look I think I also wanted to give props like Michigan did some really good work they the key is pre-processing right you're going to get a ton of abs and Dev just let's just the prepr thing is really important but one thing you did before we get to Michigan cuz I do want to talk about that cuz Michigan went the wrong Right Way North Carolina went the wrong way but the OG of this we just have to do this you know since it's do it I love it is Jeb so this all happens after the 2000 recount and I love that you started with that I started with 2000 because actually Tim most people when you think of Florida and you think of election Integrity it's like a punchline right you don't even have to finish the sentence everybody thinks of hanging Chads and Broward County and the 2000 election and what we never hear about or think about is what happened after that and so yes this is a total ODed to Jeb I actually reached out to Jeb and Jeb sat down for the interview he was delighted to do it I was so happy to sort of sit with him because one of the things he's really most proud about is legacy is pulling Republicans and Democrats together to fix Florida this is the clip we've got a clip let's listen let's listen here's you and Jeb talking about this very thing proudly say that we saw some of the problems that existed in a bipartisan way it was resoundingly by I this bill will be the will create a law that will be the model for the rest of the nation we created a standard for the ballot which made it easier to count the ballots we expanded early voting we expanded access to absentee ballots and then we did something that I think people really appreciate we count the ballots that have come in early when they come in and so by 9:00 you know who won we have never California counts for 3 weeks by the time the polls close in California we know who won in Florida it's 10 million plus votes it's two time zones and Florida's never been a problem before and it never will be again although I one coded to that is that and there's this great clip in the in the doc That I Love You Know Dan santis after 2020 after Florida had perfectly administered elections went and passed an election Integrity bill which he signed on Fox news and it actually made it harder to count and it made it harder to vote so actually DeSantis is undoing Jeb's work and so there's this like really fun like super Jeb clip in the doc where he's like I asked him about you know what Des s did and he just kind of shrugs and he's like I don't know I kind of liked getting my no excuse absentee Bell in the mail every time without having that's what he did he changed it was like you get a ballot every time and if you if you're the type of if you do absentee ballots you get an absente B in the mail it just comes in the mail it just comes in the mail an easy system to S like I know kind sometimes I forget you know which I also liked the um the the Jeb and Al Gore little owed to each other uh or or the Jeb to ow to Al Gore rather um because it is true like that's the other thing when you go all the way back to that like that that you just imagine this scenario and compare it to 2020 and it's like a totally different Universe right like algor loses by 537 votes has very legitimate criticisms it goes through the process Supreme Court has 5'4 one vote on the Supreme Court and and Al Gore concedes generously and steps away and goes and grows a beard and meanwhile and then Florida after all that becomes a billionaire yeah there you go good point and then Florida after all that the Republicans and the Democrats get together and pass this bill that we're talking about that makes the that does these reforms that that makes Florida the best right now in the whole country for counting ballots and it's everybody together and it's just like totally counter to to everything that happened in 2020 in a good way it's it's like the the good Bizarro 2020 what happened after after the 2000 election anded to all them credit to them credit to Jeb for doing that credit to the Democrats for working with Jeb they could have been so bittered by the election and said no I'm not going to work with this guy on Election reform he just helped his brother right like you could have imagined that very easily and Jeb also knew his role was totally ministerial in Florida um during the counting of the ballots and during the certification but afterwards he he did they they fixed it they they did they created a gold standard for the rest of the country uh and Michigan has reformed since 2020 Georgia has reformed since 2020 by the way more people vote in Georgia now I mean there was I do sort of tackle this sort of fallacy that that Georgia became Jim Crow 2.0 because it it it isn't I mean most independent experts will look at Georgia and say actually more people are voting in Georgia now than ever before by the way that's going to happen this year especially with a black woman on the ballot at the top of the ballot I mean I think um and and and Georgia has early voting they have early absentee voting they have souls to the polls they added as souls to the polls day uh thatt that had never been caught Ai and so um so Georgia is good and I know there's a sort of concern about the Georgia election board but I I still have really I have a lot of confidence in in Brad Kemp and raffensberger and gab Sperling um to to Monitor and keep their eye on on the situation in Georgia and I do think um you know the signs we have to be V Vigilant um but I do I do think Georgia has has all the ingredients to get it right this time even though there will be uh there will be people look it'll take a long time to count the votes I mean that's the problem if it takes a long time to count the votes people create conspiracy theories and um and and that's what we want to shine a light on um but Arizona North Carolina could be tricky um Pennsylvania GNA be tricky North Carolina has backslid on all of this right so they're going to take forever they slowed down how long it's going to take to count the penssylvania didn't fix it Pennsylania took forever last time and they did nothing and they they had a couple of bills come up through the legislature and and frankly they they just they didn't get it done I mean I know friend of the Pod uh Governor Shapiro is is one of your faves you know he was governor and and it would have been really good if if he could have used some Eble grease to sort of fix fix it right because it's they have a very divided legislature there and they needed probably some executive leadership to get it through uh and so it would have been would have been great if Pennsylvania had fixed it the way Michigan had um and and the way some of the other states Wisconsin also failed to fix it I mean Wisconsin totally didn't get it done and and what fix it means really in these specific scenarios is pass a pre-processing law pre-processing about Florida did Jeb the thing Jeb just said In that clip it's that you get all of the ballots in but they're in secrecy envelopes and you have to check for the signature match depending on the state and so if you do all of that work you take the envelope this is what Arizona can't do until 7 p.m. on Election Day Arizona cannot take the SEC the ballot out of the secrecy envelope and verify the signature so it takes 13 days to know who actually won in Arizona and you know we go down and talk to you know our friend Stephen richer the recorder of Maricopa County where 60% of arizonians vote it's the largest uh jurisdiction in the state and one of the largest jurisdictions in the country for voting and there's just this the legislature refused to fix it and everybody knew what they needed and they didn't want to fix it all for their own partisan reasons there are 365 days a year which means there are 365 days where you might need to buy somebody a birthday present and finding the perfect gift for everyone that can take weeks I know I've got my parents anniversary coming up I'm sure you got something coming up too so why not simplify the process with an aura digital picture frame ranked number one digital picture frame by wire cutter Aura frames are easy to set up update and enjoy plus Ora frames can be pre-loaded with photos and gift messages so whether you're giving the frame to your best friend your dad or your aunt Susie you can be sure your gift is personalized just for them here's how I think about the AA frame thing you know there's a period of time in the Glory Days of social media where I felt like my little Instagram was an update just for families and friends I could see cute pictures of what's happening in my life but 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of the season so don't miss out terms and conditions apply yeah and and kind of the grossest part of the reasons because they want to create trouble because they want to help Trump yeah like they want to help Trump create trouble let him stir up all this BS it was why I was mad at the networks I get into some Screaming matches with some friends at the networks who didn't call the election till like Saturday and and I think a lot of the January 6th stuff built up during that week between Tuesday and Saturday when we knew Biden had won by like Thursday night like we knew but they were just you know for whatever reason they were being cautious they're overlearning the lessons of 2000 taking so long to count and like all of this trouble and all this momentum for creating trouble happened during that time the one legitimate um potentially legitimate criticism of pre-processing is worst case scenario planning what if somebody leaks it like what if County does start and they leak it so yeah what's I mean that is that is the critique except for that like 38 states do pre-processing more than 50% of the ballots are undergo pre-processing and it's never happened so and and by the way the pre-processing doesn't mean it's tabulated see that's the other piece of this they haven't actually counted the votes right they have prepared them to be counted they have gone through the scanners but nobody ever clicked the button got it that says this is how many votes Al Gore got versus George Bush or this is how many votes that Kay Harris gets Donald Trump gets so and and each state sort of does it differently but the pre-processing is literally just open the ballot verify the signature let the voter know that you have their ballot sort of that kind of confirmation it's it's it's sort of laborious and it's tedious and it just takes a really long time you could get all that done before election day and then on Election Day run the run the ballots through the scanners and have them count nothing's going to you know like so there are I think you Jin up these critiques of pre-process say that are really fueled by the conspiracy theorists that actually aren't practically um applicable if you when you go in and you see how how they how they do it um so that's what I also you know I took cameras into all these processing centers to see like how do we count our votes like like and by the way in all of them you can go into your local election center and you can watch through plexiglass or you can you can observe I mean that's the other thing we have the most transparent elections in history and so there's these clips of like Cory lowski being like well I can't even go into the center to watch well guess what because he was talking about the fact the TCI Center in Pennsylvania and Philadelphia the the convention center remember they had they had to have a huge space because it was Co they didn't want people getting Co and so they wanted social distancing so like now none of that exists you have a permanent facility in Philadelphia where anybody can go and watch how they're counting the votes and God bless Seth blin who is the the only Republican election commissioner in Philadelphia who just will will stand by and explain to anyone who thinks that Pennsylvania went for uh Trump and he will show you exactly how he'll show you the audits he will show you where the ballots are I mean the information is there for people who want the truth um and if you don't want the truth you just keep going on all the conspiracy Theos sites and keep repeating the lies um but but you know the idea was I still believe sunlight is the best disinfectant and so the idea was sort of to get ahead of it to unpack what happened last time and then prospectively to think about what's going to happen this time um because I mean can I just say the play that what the Trump campaign wants yeah let's talk about that what's the play this time because if it's not Congress right if it's not the VP cuz it's not it's not like KLA Harris is going to show the courage to make Donald Trump the president so what what what's the play this time I think the play is to prevent one state at least one state from sending in a slate of electors and and and that could be like it just takes too long you just can't get account you can't get a certification you guys You' have t AB has written about this you've talked about with Amanda but I think what then ends up happening is because of the Electoral count Reform Act they States will be compelled ultimately by the Supreme Court to send in their slate of electors so this is never going to go to the house the slates of electors will get sent in they will be sent in because the adjudication for this process used to be before the Electoral count Reform Act it used to be that you know every state was different in terms of how this was adjudicated in the court sometimes it would go through the state courts and then it would get over to the federal courts and there were different there was just an amalgam there completely different processes for how this kind of question would be adjudicated and because of the Electoral count Reform Act it will be adjudicated in federal court it will then go to Circuit Courts it will then go to the Supreme Court ultimately and I think the play is that they force and they compel the Supreme Court to compel a state to send in its state electors and then that ultimately casts a shadow of sort of not impunity but of of um like this this notion of illegitimacy on the election entirely in the same way by the way that there doubts about 2020 have cast enough of a shadow of illegitimacy on whether Pennsylvania happened appropriately that like that there's still you know 70% 68 70% of Republicans that aren't so sure that there weren't Shenanigans in Pennsylvania right and so it's just it's about I mean I think now we do have an a process for ensuring that whoever wins the election actually will become the president but it won't be without um you know possibly quite a quite a dark shadow of um illegitimacy especially if the Supreme Court is forced to compel a state of el a slate of electors um to send their electors to the Electoral College I mean that that will cast um cast doubt on the ultimate outcome yeah one more uh item that you covered that I want to listen to um here's Donald Trump talking about dead people dead people lots of dead people thousands and some dead people actually requested an application that bothers me EV we found that there were four people that assumed the identity of someone that had already passed away and in two cases wasn't it family members it was family members and who were voting for their deceased family member as they believe they would two of them were actually Republicans and two of them were the other side you know so it was bipartisan you know on both they cancel each other out yeah Donald Trump just doesn't care about any of this stuff this the dead people clip by the way could have been from anything because that's Donald Trump but that was from from his speech on January 6th I think the play this time it's not the dead people it's the non-citizen voting right which they did a little bit of non-citizen voting last time but this time they're really doubling down on it I mean I think that is going to be the mechanism by which they say Arizona is just we can't certify Arizona or or or whatever it is there's there's so many non-citizen immigrants for I mean and it's not true I mean I cover this in the documentary like there isn't a way for Mass numbers of non-citizens to vote um and but that's that's that's seems to be the TX they'll take um come November yeah uh what my last thing on uh on the voting thing is the mail is there any cons the male thing is the one thing that I'm a little squishy on on electoral form I I do wonder if we should have a little less male the only example of voter fraud I've ever heard of in my life has been also a republican who uh voted for their college age son who was going to vote for the Democrat and they voted by mail uh because they were away at college and so I do you know that all to me it's like I'm for early voting lots of early voting easy access to early voting excuse mail you want old people to be able to vote by mail but I do I don't know Colorado does my home St let me take it on let me take it on I know by the way you and I are both from Colorado I mean I'm I'm also a Denver girl I like it when you have put your Denver references in because um I know I know St reges I mean I I know I know you guys I know who you are where was your high school again have we I went to I went to I went to high school I didn't really particularly love Kent I went to Kent Denver oh you went to Kent that's why even talked about it oh Kent Denver got it that that Mak sense um no it didn't it was not a good fit it was not a good fit but uh I but I grew up in Hilltop and uh you know anyway um I'm older than you that's all Tim right there on Quincy no what is that yeah I've got some Kent Denver stories I I got in some trouble with some Kent Denver kids I got to tell you some of the K Denver kids got me in trouble anyway continue I'm sure it was their fault not yours I'm sure you weren't the instigator um listen uh Colorado does 100% mail in val voting Utah does 100% mail and voting Washington state does 100% mail and voting Oregon has 100% male in voting where there are states that have properly administered this and really effectively vote people love it and it is by the way in the reason I actually went to Utah and I went and talked to one of the commissioners of voting in Utah because Utah is a red State and I mean the part of the point is to get against the narrative right it's it's Republicans who are like I don't know about the mail and that can be really shady so like so I went to a Republican State you guys do 100% mail and voting why do you do it how do you do it how does it work I mean the thing about mail and voting in each of the states that do it rather than like a hybrid State like Arizona where 80% of the people vote by mail but then some you know vote on the same on the day of they have track they have bar codes they have tracking they like your mom and my mom in Colorado get an email when the Board of Elections has received their ballot right so if your son if the son the dad who voted for the son he would have gotten an email saying your ballot was just received and he would have been like wait but I didn't vote and then he would have called his dad and be like did you vote for me like you know there there there are really fastidious tracking mechanisms for knowing and being in touch with voters and then if not they would have gone and cured The Ballot or fixed the ballot and so in states where this is uh has been going for many years um it works really well and people really like it and ultimately what um Amelia Powers Gardner tells me in the documentary is like look she she took on this notion that Republicans are against male voting she said when we implemented mail and voting in Utah more people could vote we had higher participation a lot of the people who can't get to the polls are women on Election Day because they have in Utah they have big families and lots of other things going on and they can't actually get to the polls but so but the it it actually ends up enfranchising far more voters and if you have more Republicans more Republicans are going to vote and so participation is way up amongst Republicans in Utah as it turns out because they've done mail and voting so I I think actually honestly if Donald wanted to win in 2020 he should have doubled down on mail and voting he would have won by the way I mean if if Donald Trump hadn't believed that mailin voting was in was not secure in some way and had just like put all of his attention into making sure that the ballots were you know secured and returned he would have won easily in 2020 so like I mean I guess thank God he didn't thank god um all right counting the vote people should go watch it I've got two more things for you before I lose you really quick the firing line the other half year job at PBS I think I I was just I was rewat watching the Joanie ER interview just um the other day and it's like I just I just want to pick your brain on it's so hard to do Republicans these days and it's just like not a lot of them want to come on this podcast um partly because of my trump derangement syndrome you you found a nice balance we tough on them but you can still get them and um and and like you know in a different environment Joanie Ernst has plenty of things people disagree with but you know she worked bipartisan on on you know SE helping sexual assault victims and you know she seems like a decent person but at the same time every single one of them is complicit in Donald Trump's effort to overthrow the government and and like so there's like a fundamental lie they have to tell to just even sit in the chair next to you on the show and so like how do you deal with that like that is different like sure Democrats Spin and all that but like that's the only example where you're beginning an interview and you know that like well they have to lie to me about Donald Trump that's just ba that's just the Baseline like that's crazy um here here's what I'll say I I I understand I understand what you're saying um one of the things that is true about the fact that Donald Trump has and has and his sort of cult of personality has overtaken the Republican Party um is that there are there are people who when push comes to shove like will absolutely defend democracy even if they're not willing to put their name like plant the anti-trump flag in the sand and then lose their seats um the way kinzinger and Cheney did and um you know there are a lot of them in hiding um in the senate in the house there are I mean and that's um it's it's not what you know maybe you and I would prefer um and it's it lacks the outspoken sort of the loud moral Clarity that we're so thirsty for um and yet like I want Joanie Ernst in the senate advocating for Ukrainian funding and I want Joanie Ernst uh you know saying that the military isn't woke and by God transgender um soldiers are are some of the best soldiers she's ever fought with you know like there are you know so you know and she is really good on these issues and and frankly the violence against women act and and Military assaults um I just it it's It's Tricky I look it's not tricky it's just the party has been overtaken and by the way if you think crazy the Republicans in Arizona are nuts like you know they're nuts in Iowa too like Joanie you know Joanie has always has people on the far right gunning for her and gunning for her seat and um you know she you know her next election um you know she may have a really serious primary if Trump were to win um but if Trump loses and loses you know you know definitively and with like with no question he has to lose by so much this time that this curse passes right like the shadow passes and it's not like his his power will Wan immediately but it will wne it will Wan substantially because he won't be the nominee again in four years and I don't know that the part's ever going to be what the party was I don't know if you know that that that that party that the Young Generation of conservatives that I like like I don't know that that's ever going to happen again but what do know is Trump has to lose and he has to lose so seriously and by so much um that that the the fever begins to recede and um because yeah you know and there's you know there's a just there's this there's this question there's this an this question that like Joanie ER has to ask herself like do I do I come out and stand up against Trump and lose my seat or do I continue to St him because I believe in Ukraine and I believe in the military and I you know and and that is um you know you see it with a lot of them and and you're right I mean if the question is where they stand about Trump they they they won't go there they don't want to go there um and they believe it's in service to larger policies and to larger principles and larger values and and that is the dynamic yeah it is a dynamic and it's like okay I don't know you can sell me on that Dynamic with Bill Cassidy at least because he voted to convict right but like the people that didn't by the way well and that's why I love that's by the way why I love having Lisa marowski and why Susan R Collins is going to come on soon enough like those are the ones I really want to P by the way they're trying to get rid of open Cho open rank Choice voting and open primaries in Alaska there is like a move for that the Wall Street Journal is editorializing about that Susan Lisa marowski who voted to convict who is pro-choice who did not vote for Brett Kavanaugh would not have won her seat back into the Senate if it hadn't been for those kind of voting reforms I mean so that's the other piece of this is like how do we fix it long term we have to change this closed partisan primary system because it just empowers you know the cult of personality and the crazies to continue having Republicans that can't win people from the center right who just can't win broadly um and then and then you know you got a single party you know government which isn't good for any of us either I'm with you on all those reforms I just it's the the lying it's the lying thing that really comes down to with me I don't know it's it's the it's the lying it's like as an interviewer you know you got to just be like will you just tell me what you really think just tell me what you I I get it I guess the fundamental thing is that they that that you know that they know that they can't and that's and that's and that is what is pernicious about that's and that's only happening on one side right you don't have to deal with that moral calculus when you're interviewing Chris Murphy right like he might be you know exaggerating a point or spinning but like there's not a fundamental untruth right you know yeah I I yeah yes that's true these are not it is it is asymmetrical um and I think I mean look I think Joanie ER actually believes that Donald Trump if he is surrounded by the right people and she believes that that can happen too I think she believes that he'll be okay like that they can check you know you know that's what we moov from liar to delusional okay all right so we have a delusional person that is somewhat well intended I I mean I'm not willing to say that she's Del I'm not asking you to say it I'm not asking you to say you got to keep this is why they don't come on my show cuz I can't [ __ ] help myself it's not my my one of my be one of my besties is uh is one of her advisers think is just oh are you oh I think I know who you're talking about um I bet I know who you're talking about uh but look the idea also is like we have to show the American public what these people who these people are and what they're dealing with right like I Joanie in many ways is a is a profile en courage and in other ways like I know that you wish you more outspoken about Trump um by the way there are a lot of them like that right but there a lot of them also one of the calculat I think of Tim and maybe this will bring us to our next topic like every single member of Congress that's running I just think in my head all the the only question I'm asking myself are they going to vote for certification like is this republican or democrat in front of me going to vote for certification of the election regardless of who wins right whether it's KLA or whether it's Trump like because Trump could still win this [ __ ] thing fair and square he could and you know if he does are they going to vote for certification uh you know or are they too too much and there's a there's a lot of herd mentality to go around but there is way more of it on the right and like there for the Republicans who voted for certification I mean there's only two God bless Dan new house God bless David valido I will say their names over and over and over again these are the only two Republicans who voted for impeachment in the House of Representatives that remain there and Dan new house just got second in his primary which the top two primary in Washington against a far more right-wing crazy guy so now he's gonna win so now he'll return and valido should return too but like those guys deserve so much support and by the way Financial backing like you know send these like I I'm not in the business of fundraising for everybody but like send these guys a check these guys deserve it they stood up to Trump they liveed to tell the story unlike Adam kininger unlike Liz Cheney right they they deserve our support and they should return to the House of Representatives um so that's what I'm just thinking is like who because we need a house of representativ that's going to certify the next election period like we just can't have what we had before that does take us to our final topic uh this is your first time on the B podcast which is crazy by the way and it must might be internalized misogyny cuz it's not the first time anyone in household has been on your spouse is John avlon who many of us know my SP John Avon has been on twice once with you and once maybe twice with Charlie yeah I know what the hell I don't know what the explanation is for that um but uh John is running uh in New York he's putting his money where the M his mouth is he's gon to certify he's running as a Democrat yeah for people who didn't listen to that episode um uh and uh I just I'm dying for an update on the race like what's happening with him and so I think you you were very kind to have him on uh you had him on in the primary right after he announced so like most people um go to Congress so they can be on TV my husband left TV so he could go to Congress he's doing this completely backwards um and so he had resigned from the anti- gates the anti-g the anti- he is the anti- gates um in every way let me tell you uh but he um you had him on right as he announced his primary and and the field was crowded there were five people in the primary um it it wowed pretty quickly there were two people in soon and a self- funder uh stayed in and spent a million dollars in negative ads against him of her own money uh and he won the Primary by 40 percentage points um it was 70% to 29% actually so he he did an incredible job and it just like he actually turns out he's a pretty good candidate I knew it'd be a good talker but I didn't know he'd be like really have like great political sniffer and and you know he he's he's he I was really proud of him he did great so now he's he's cruising he's running against a first-term republican incumbent who won't vote to certify just want to be clear um the the guy uh is um you know he's he's there are 18 districts that Biden won that are held by Republicans and he was the first this is one of those districts it's New York one this is the first that uh this guy was the first of those 18 Republicans in Biden districts to endorse Trump um he cheered the overturning of roie Wade he cheered the killing of the Border Bill he wants to lower the age limit to buy AR-15s I mean he's just like too extreme for a district that is essentially a third a third and thir Democrat let's lower the age limit that's really what people are looking for let's make it can can we get 15year olds with AR15s in high school that's exactly the solution to the problems we have in this country so um so anyway he's uh look I think the fundamentals are really are really good and uh and John's definitely outw workking him and out raising him and uh but I've also learned him like elections come down the last two weeks you know at the at the you know and you know that I mean you know that you know that so it doesn't matter what the polls are now matter to ask me what the plls are on October 15th uh that's you know and that's and that's where the pedal goes to the metal and that's where like all the work you've done all year long or in the case of kamla that she's done for the last six weeks it that's where it all sort of comes to fruition and uh and you know where the rubber hits the road so look I I'm really proud of him for doing it um it's you know it's not always easy for families I understand why people say that but look this is not a hardship posting either like you know the people who serve in our military do far harder things um and you know my hat's off to them so I'm you know proud of my husband hope he wins um and uh thanks for thanks for shining a light on his race of course John aan.com people want to support him it's a it's one of those Biden uh seats in New York that Republicans won ties to our whole conversation abortion I think is very related to it the Republicans did better in blue States I think because people didn't feel like the risk to abortion was as acute and it is now I think in a national election um uh versus a midterm so I think there's something to that and uh you know if Trump wins by the way if Trump wins uh the Senate looks bad so the house is critical it's seats like John's that are critical to ensure that hakee Jeff is the speaker and not Mike Johnson so it's a super important race we love John Common Sense Democrat we'll be having him back on the podcast hopefully he's a congressman next time Margaret hoofer will you come back soon as well I'd love it thanks Tim for having me I it's one time Adam kiner was like well I who what who am I going to listen to in my run today because this is what I listen to and I I'm like this is exactly how I feel I mean you're part of my daily podcast diet so it's a true pleasure and honor to to to join the audience and you um here so proud of what you guys do really really love it thanks so much check out our documentary it's on YouTube if you want watch on YouTube it's on PBS on the PBS app we're going to be back on Monday for a Labor Day episode with Bill Crystal it'll be abbreviated I'll probably be hung over it's Southern decadence here in Louisiana so I'll see you all there on Sunday night it's the LSU opener versus USC so we'll be watching that go Tigers I hope you all have a wonderful Labor Day weekend get some sun and uh we'll see you on Monday peace [Music]