Episode #402 - Interview with Jacqueline Trumbull

all right let's bring her in uh you know her from RE season of The Bachelor she was on some season of paradise that we don't need to talk about but she also has a podcast called a little help for our friends she is a multi-time guest on the show it is jacqulyn Trumble Jacqueline how are you hi I'm great how are you I'm wonderful um so let's start out with this you've been on the podcast probably I don't know five six seven times but this is the first on video how do you like the whole video thing Jacqueline other than you being flipped I'm yeah I'm flipped I spend all day on Zoom talking to patients so I'm like totally wigged out because the I don't know that anybody else can tell but the video is flipped so like your left hand is supposed to be your right hand yeah yeah when you're on Zoom with patients it it doesn't do this no huh I know yeah I don't know I mean my when like my shirt people can read it left to right so my side isn't flipped I don't know why yours is maybe it's the way you have the maybe when you turn the phone horizontally you turned it horizontally one way instead of maybe the other I don't know I I don't know how it works yeah oh you're on your laptop okay even better so let's uh let's first dive into Jen season I know you're caught up now on Jen season I binged it you right right off the bat what are your impressions so far through four episodes well I I liked Jen aot on Joey's season so I was excited when she was The Bachelorette I think she is really kind of endearing in how she you know she feels like a little bit insecure in the role but she's coming into her own and um I like how kind of cute she is with the guys and not always incredibly polished so I like her um I think these guys are being little babies a lot of the time with all their talk of respect and they're all beating each other up but I really like Marcus really like Devin Alex Spencer I think is there anybody I mean when you watch it obviously having been on the show and having been through it does I don't want to say PTSD because you're so far removed from it I don't think you still get affected by watching the show and other people's edits or I don't know maybe when you watch the show do you try and pick out things that you know are edited or Franken bitt or anything like that or do you just watch it to just as mindless television um I would say a little bit of both I me I'm not like scouring it but the number one thing I pay attention to is when like there are patterns that repeat show to show like season to season to season like I was shocked that Aaron Noah's brother made the big deal about interrupting for instance in respect and like when after Devon because I'm just like how do you not know better by now like how and then how did Noah not tell you that people get assigned times to talk to the lead you know and like here's the thing I got my Airtime wiped okay but I also left early so I think you have a couple of strategies on the show one you can be dramatic in which case you'll get airtime but you'll also leave early most like usually you'll also leave early and the time you get with the lead will be with okay I was an under the radar person I didn't cause any drama and that meant that I got a solid 10 to 20 times 10 sorry 10 to 20 minutes with Ari every single time and have to fight for it I didn't get interrupted you know I just like lined up when the producer said to line up got my time and it worked out well for me so I'm just like Aaron if you just don't get riled up by being interrupted you won't get interrupted they only do there's a producer going behind Dev and being like going again now going again now like how that's just Bachelor 101 and he had a brother who did it already so that's the kind of stuff I'll look for I'll be like clearly this is a producer manipulated moment just don't fall for it that's all you have to do and if you know enough about the show you won't and the ironic thing is Noah was an interruptor on Claire SL like he showed up on a group date that he wasn't even a part of like this is this is what I mean and then I don't know if you remember this when Noah towards the end when tasa had taken over and Claire had gone away remember the whole emotional intelligence bit with that Bennett guy and Bennett gave Noah a book about emotional intelligence and then they basically repeated the same storyline people were asking because at the time it never registered with me it wasn't until readers pointed it out to me after the episode aired hey Steve remember when Noah's Brother uh when Noah received a book from Bennett on emotional intelligence is it the same book that he then handed to his brother so his brother could hand it to Devin and it ended up not being the same book but same exact concept the fact that both herb brothers were involved in a book handing over of emotional intelligence on the show it's just like okay this is a little bit played out yeah so that so that was clearly planned then I I mean and it's such a bad look that I'm surprised it just makes no sense why would want to repeat it and you know something else that was found out the book that Aaron handed to Devin isn't even a real book by a real author the author's name on the book people like screenshot the book and they're like Googled it not even a real book and the author's name on the book is somebody that's a producer on the show or somebody that works on the show so like again they didn't have to go to the links that they did for something so insignificant and and Aaron had this you know he kind of had this exit where hey he's going to leave the show and go to the Air Force and serve our country yet he goes out with such a whimper of oh yeah by the way I know some guys aren't here and she's like well tell me he's like nah not gonna do that like he could have had a way better exit than he did and he went out like that just just a bad three episodes for Aaron if you're asking me that was super bizarre I don't I I mean I don't know why he would why he would agree to that little trick but and like you said his brother was on the show he had to have watched the show he had to have known about this yeah and he's like like a really hot smart guy like why would he he could have taken the other direction and like actually built a connection with her you know what I mean there's no reason he had to sabotage himself and the whole thing with you know Devon interrupting him when he was alone with Jen then him coming back in to interrupt Devon and then Devon coming back it was just this is so clear what was happening you knew producers were doing it you knew that they were going to send Devon in when it was his alone time with Jen I just don't get you know this is something we see every season we know anytime someone interrupts it's strictly to piss off the other person because producers know it will get under the other person's skin and it's to advance some sort of storyline on the show this one in particular being Devon and Aaron don't like each other or Aaron doesn't like Devon I think Devon seems to be unbothered by Aaron but Aaron clearly didn't like him but yeah this is It's petty stuff but here we are in season 49 and it happens every season so season 49 49 Jen is uh Jen is 21st Bachelorette and Joey was the 28th Bachelor so this is the 49th season of the show combined I see I was like I was com and I'm not yeah no combined between the two combined Ari was what what number was he 16th 15 no he wasn't 13 seasons ago you weren't on the show 13 years ago right no I was on the show six years ago Jesus Ari was only six years so he would have been Bachelor what TW he was 22 well was season two I don't know Season seon 22 that's all I know okay then yeah he was the 22nd Bachelor gosh it also see okay should that make sense although it I thought it was further back maybe I'm thinking of Nick's season was Nick before or after Ari ni was right before Ari Nick was the season before Ari okay yeah that's yeah because my friend nominated me because they wanted me to be on Nick's season thank God you weren't um uh so moving on with with this obviously you said the men are just there's certain ones that you do like but the pettiness between them and know I said this this week and we we you and I haven't really talked about this at all because you just finished watching it out hours before we started recording here the Sam and virgin thing it's it's one thing to go on the show as a virgin we've seen that numerous times it's not really a big deal usually they're probably not gonna end up winning but you know they're going to use it for a storyline the problem I have with Sam n is clearly a guy that got sucked in by production and was doing and saying things production was telling him to do but to cast a guy not only who's a virgin but who's never been in love never even in a relationship he said he didn't even know how to hold a woman's hand it's like I know I know why producers cast him but come on it was never gonna be a realistic choice for Jen she was never gonna pick him in a thousand years I thought it was ambiguous whether he was actually a sexual virgin I mean I don't know if that's been confirmed I mean oh they because he said oh that's right because he said uh yeah I I see what you're saying well in the limo entrance he was like I'm a virgin psych I'm a love virgin which is like not better you know um but I I thought he was making the point that he has had sex at least uh but then they kind of played it up with making it seem like this would be his first kiss of all time which I I don't think is necessarily what was going on but yeah I I I just to put on a shirt that says Jen's husband and to give her a shirt that says Sam's wife I mean look we know this is all done by production but he agreed to do it and it and and then he sat there at the party thinking that he was so far I don't know ahead of the other guys but thinking he had this giant connection it's like read the room man it wasn't even close I thought the shirt thing was cute I have a problem with it but isn't it a little bit much when you've never been in a relationship and now you're telling somebody you're my wife yeah like if you're genen and put yourself in Jen situation if you're Jen would you have been like this is a bit much yes but at the same time the whole show is about finding a wife or whatever so it just it I would have been like okay he's playing on that theme whatever and not have taking it seriously I mean the whole falling saying that he was falling in love thing was a little bizarre but I felt kind of bad for him I mean he was so clearly insecure on the show and then finally had a date where he was like okay rugby I can do rugby I can I can shine that's what this is about you know I think he just kind of got caught up in like I think the person who plays the show well as Devon you know he like he gets presented with a date like I loved this the stripper date right first of all they all did amazing that was I mean that would have been my worst worst nightmare of the date okay and I wait as a contestant or if you're the lead and you had to watch it oh I would love it if I was the lead as a contestant that would be my worst nightmare like I have image insecurities I'm a terrible dancer combining the two is just like I would hate it um but Devon came out and he he did so many things well a he just made a huge performance B he took his body image issues and put them on their head by being like wearing a thong like he went more naked than anybody else and see he used it as uh a pathway into vulnerability and showing her that there's more to him than just the goofy guy so I was like he gets the point you know of all of this it's to have a good attitude and find an in for connection so I think he did really well and then Sam n seems to think like oh the point of this date is to impress her like with how good I am at the activity which is never the point on any of these dayses did you ever have a competitive what I don't remember your all your group dates once you tell me I'll it'll spark a memory did you guys ever have a you know a football game or something physical for you guys what were the group dates that you did on REI season okay generic ones that were on well we had wrestling but it was cor oh I oh that's right I remember the wrestling day with Kenny King right no that wasn't already season it was R season but Kenny king wasn't there I thought Kenny showed up for a wrestling date he was like the coach no it was two women from that wrestling show okay Kenny king showed up on a different season for a wrestling date but yes I hear what you're saying yeah yeah so that was I remember that now I initially was like this is my worst nightmare but but then it was choreograph so it was actually really fun and so it wasn't a true competition then we had a bowling date and that was a competition but it was bowling that's right yeah that was the crystal meltdown date yeah yeah but the best part of that date is that Jenna got wasted okay she got wasted and she was just like being crazy with the bowling ball and like just having a blast and we were she was put on my team and my team was short staff we were only four against five and people like Becca Martinez who we assumed was athletic she was on the other team and anyways we're like we're I'm a you know I'm terrible at anything athletic okay including bowling so I was like this is going to be terrible and then Jenna who's wasted gets up and you know it's her turn she throws a strike and then she comes back and she's like I have a secret I'm like what she's like I'm amazing at bowling it was just like strike strike strike stri oh so she was like actually sandb backing she was actually a good bowl or she just didn't want to tell anybody or she had a good round or she got a she's actually good okay so good that she could do it wasted so well yeah it is bowling is different bowling is a different sport it's one of the few Sports where you can actually get better the more the more drunk you get that's the amazing thing about bowling like you play baseball or basketball drunk you're not gonna do anything correctly but you can bowl drunk yeah because all you gotta do is throw a ball down a lane but you know it's funny because we talk about edits on this show and obviously one of the big topics has been this whole Devin versus Sam M edit you've seen what Sam M's family has been writing on social media and it kind of brings me back to your season because you know Crystal got a villain edit and Crystal was somebody that was getting a ton of heat online for the way that she was coming across on the show but hers got taken to I remember her making a post about it like she was getting death threats and stuff like that which is totally undeserved I don't care how anybody acts on a reality show especially this one nobody deserves to be told to die over it it's I don't care how bad you act even if you're calling other everyone in the house names and you're saying I hate all these people doesn't mean that you deserve to die maybe people can just be like hey you should check yourself and watch the way you treat other people just something like that some sort of constructive criticism not go kill yourself yeah but you know with with de with Devin and Sam I I I liking it like I said to Crystal when you were seeing what was playing out with Crystal was that the crystal that you remembered filming with or were you when you were watching it we were like oh I didn't realize he was just she was this bad or were you like oh wow the show is doing her dirty no she was definitely worse than I thought she was in person but oh I mean in person she was more erive and like I mean in her itms she said mean things I mean it's like like nothing that affected me in any you know in any way but she certainly said mean things was she saying things did she call people out by name did she say particular contestants or was she just kind of one of those contestants that in itms was just talking about how basically how great she was and nobody could compete with her and AR's connection and stuff like that I kind of remember it but I kind of don't I think the latter I mean she may have had a Throwdown with like I think she did with like Caroline and tia once but I don't know I mean we knew she was the villain on the show we were like that's definitely that's definitely Crystal you know like and why did you know this because she was keeping to herself and she was clearly one of the girls that's like I'm not here for to make friends I'm here no she just no she tried to make friends I mean I you know I was friends with her I was friendly enough with her she was my partner in wrestling she had an abrasive personality she had a sickeningly sweet voice as everyone might remember yeah which I don't think was her Genuine Voice necessarily and she wanted to keep kind of qu she came across as condescending and the voice didn't help and she like wouldn't tell C people certain things so people felt like she was being conniving or something and then but the the the way we knew she was the well a she got into like a tiff with TI and Caroline early on and then B she started unraveling what was her what did her unraveling consist of um well the whole bowling date thing was like a disaster so she started venting about Ari then and again like blaming Ari for letting the other group come with us to the cocktail party because we it was our team that was supposed to because of because of Jenna strikes that's right the win the winning team was only supposed to get time with him and they basically changed his mind and said you're all coming to the after party yeah yeah so then she like stayed in her robe and obviously all of that was encouraged but I mean one way you know somebody's a villain is you're dragged out of whatever you're doing and told hey go talk about Crystal and you're all riled up about Crystal and then she's brought up out in her bathrobe to sit in the the midst of us but yeah she would just like she started getting like angrier and more freaked out and then she would like sit alone and then we would make her sit alone because she became a bit of a social Pariah um which I always give Becca kuer and credit for because she was like guys we're not doing this we're not like going to be sitting here at the airport at a table while Crystal sits alone so she like invited Crystal over so that was a really nice moment um but I mean I don't know I didn't I just yeah I mean you weren't in I don't remember you having any sort of beef with her either on camera or even off camera it was just one of these things where I just look at it and you know it was a different time back then obviously you said like six years ago but now you see the the Sam M and you know the brief time you and I have talked about this season you're just like I don't even see Sam M as the villain I don't know why his family's getting so upset over over this uh expand on that more I mean if you are to pick somebody this season that I guess is a villain it's it's got to be him at this point he's not a horrible villain I thought it was gonna be Aaron for hotac who technically he was oh okay well he was way worse than anything Sam's been doing uh you think yeah I mean yeah I mean I I could pick 10 villains worse than what Sam is doing that's why so like why is his family absolutely losing it over his edit yes he's not I I feel like he's giving the show material because he keeps saying you know his line the main Gonna Keep the main thing the main thing and then he has that when the guys are on the group date last episode and he's sitting there with Devin all right man what's your problem with me deon's like I don't have a problem with you yeah you do and he's like man your name your name's not even in my mouth bro and it's like yes it is because all you do is keep talking about him so you know I see some between Devon and oh who was that super hot guy bradden okay where I'm sure both of them were annoying because there's a whole cohort of men who are annoyed by by by both of them for for Bren it was all of them and both of them have this characteristic where they are socially abrasive when it's in a group setting they're loud they're showy they are in some ways unapologetically themselves but it comes across as socially unaware and like uncool essentially but they actually have really high social Acuity in particular ways so I remember when Braden would get into conflicts with other men he to me made them look like the idiot he'd be like listen I'm just being myself like I no you're the one yelling no you're the one making this a huge distraction and he would just kind of remain Cal and and kind of turn their words on them and that's kind of what I see Devon doing he has made some digs that have pissed them off like my favorite was when he got the he got the group Rose and was like as Thomas said I think that this is really indicative of the kind of man genen wants um it was just like okay like obviously he knew he was going to piss people off with that remark but it was also pretty funny and clever and then you know he like really brings it when he's with her and these guys don't don't understand that you can be one thing in a group of men and you can be an entirely different thing with a woman and you know if he was being slimy or um you know talking about other women or or something like that then that's something to bring to her but if he's just kind of annoying that's really not and I think it's almost on it's almost like on Jen to find out like if she if she doesn't find him annoying and you guys do then why do you keep telling her hey he's annoying it's like she doesn't seem care because she clearly likes him I mean it's clear day I like Devin I think he's great I mean but I'm sure he's like I'm sure there's an element about him that's annoying and that has been annoying but I think he did a really good job also of pointing out that everyone else is making character attacks and he wasn't and everyone else is like claiming that they know what Jen wants after meeting her for approximately 25 minutes and saying that like she wouldn't want a guy like him and he's like why don't Jen figure that out like why are you telling who I am and why are you telling me who she is like yeah no it it makes perfect sense and I think one of the other things is it's not like we weren't warned of this in the very first episode in in Devin's intro video do you remember what he said he's like I'm loud I'm basically like I'm a loud guy I'm the center of attention and really that's all he's been he's just kind of loud he likes to take over a room but it's not something we didn't know he was going to do because he said it in his intro video yeah it's the same story with Braden and bradden winds up being a bachelor hero I think so it's these guys who are like yeah they're kind of loud and annoying but that's not actually a crime and then they're really good with women and they're actually kind of okay at Conflict Management I mean yeah I I think when you look at I mean if you were to look at Devin and compare him to the average male contestant on this show he is he doesn't fit in that box he doesn't have six-pack abs he's not conventionally like a active but yet I think the reason he's winning over Jen is number one he's showering her with attention and he I think on this last date if you really watch it and study the last date uh in episode four where they did the whole culture thing in New Zealand and even on their the night portion of their dinner date you compare his night portion of his dinner date with Sam's earlier in the episode first off Jen was the one talking to Sam the whole time it didn't sound like he had much to say and granted it could have been the Ed in it could have been a 5 hour conversation for all we know but we can only go off what they show us but Devin seemed way more interested in getting to know Jen ask questions about her and Sam I understand that Jen was telling her story about always picking the wrong guys and always having trouble you know Guy having trouble with men in the past and you know Sam was there like yeah no I understand no you're worthy or whatever but Sam as people have pointed out seems to speak in Nicholas Sparks books and movie quotes when he talks to women um yeah I mean he's just a Smooth Operator like he I mean he I think he knows how to be cool he knows how to be attractive it comes easily to him and so that's what he's doing whereas Devin had a had an opposite coming into the Earth you know he wasn't attractive he definitely wasn't cool and he actually had to develop a personality and I'm not saying Sam doesn't have one but we just haven't seen it yeah other than at it that could definitely maybe at it I don't know I just look at Sam and I'm like that's that's the kind of a guy who probably needs to marinade a little bit longer and maybe when he's in his upper 30s or something he'll be a great partner but right now like why shouldn't he be a boy I that's what I would assume he would be right now he's like 27 he looks like that he's very attractive cool like I I mean I was surprised when I heard out when he I heard he'd been engaged previously because I was like oh I just assumed you'd want to like around forever but yeah I mean just at this point with Sam it's it it's kind of one of these things where when you look at it and you look at his edit and you look at they're clearly pitting him against Devon I mean it's been that way for I think ever since episode one he he just has an issue with Devon and I think there's a part of him that probably looks at Devon and realizes he's up I think it's clear that he's upset that Jen likes Devin that bothers him he's probably like this guy this is like this is my competition yeah and he's and he knows he's more attractive than Devon conventionally but and he's and he's not comprehending because he's probably had it pretty easy with women his whole life about being able to get women and he just doesn't understand it but he's taking it out on Devin and you know I can sit here and go over the first four episodes and I'm not even talking about you know I'm very well-versed in how this show Works obviously and seeing anytime that there's a voice over and anytime I don't see somebody's face on screen and their lips moving and talking I just assume it's Franken bitten and taken from somewhere else so I don't deal in voiceovers yeah but even this past episode just dealing with what Sam said in the one minute into the episode he says he he started trashing Devon in his itm where we can see him talking and that's the kind of stuff people are talking about and his family is just getting so upset over how they're showing him and it just they're not doing him any favors because their you know their big thing that you saw is just like show the real footage they're not showing the context it's like first off they're not going to listen to you family and be like oh yeah by the way since Sam's family is requesting we show everything in context here it is for you it's like it's NE you're never going to win battling the edit and they just don't understand that at this point and it's making it worse for Sam I think than better well it's definitely making it worse definitely agree on that um I just looked at the screenshots you send me so I'm not following along but it doesn't take I mean a rocket science to figure out that that's not going to go well it's just that I think they're falling for a couple of things one is like I'll use myself an example I was very unpopular on Reddit okay but that does not mean that I was an unpopular contestant people who are watching the show are not the same people they're going to trash you on Instagram like overall Sam is probably still a fair popular contestant I mean maybe certain people don't like certain things but that doesn't mean they think he's like the you know this absolute that they're probably being told he is on social media because people are very vocal especially people with negative opinions so they are probably more up in arms and freaked out than they need to be and I completely understand that um and I've I've said on here like four times no one knows how to be famous when they go on the show and that goes for their family members too and so in their minds they're just defending their family members without realizing that when you join the pylon there's more weight on the pile you Sam's the one at the bottom so like stay away you know like let it simmer just and I I think this is something you and I have talked about numerous times in the past is yeah when you go on this show unfortunately fair or not your family becomes fair game because you know the Reddit people people online will just go searching for anything that you have said in the past anything your family has said in the past anything they've posted about and I think the other thing is as we know most people that go on this show when they first get cast very few followers you know they're the only people that follow them on Instagram are probably friends and family and people they went to school with back in the day so you never have anybody I mean before you went on the show did you ever have anybody in your life comment on anything you posted on Instagram that was remotely critical probably not no no no and now you got strangers saying anything and everything without any sort of repercussions so like you said you it's very hard to handle that when you've never had to deal with it so he's gotten nothing but praise his whole life on social media and probably from women in his life and then here he is now getting criticized for acting the way he did and you know laughing about Sam n which I'm sure was taken out of context but that's kind of the stuff that they're referring to it's just like you can't win what do you think the show's going to do actually show context if if you don't get it by now when we're 49 seasons in it's almost like hey it's on you now yeah it doesn't me it doesn't make it fair I'm not saying like look we know toxic Bachelor nation is awful to people just flat out awful what Sam is getting I don't think is awful it's just criticism for the things that he is saying on camera yes some of the things that people are talking about are I think voiceovers that we're not seeing him actually say and probably are taking out of context but what I'm saying is I think there is still plenty of footage like the one-on-one conversation with Devin where he gets just so worked up over this guy I think that's the other thing that is giving people ammunition it's just like hey man calm down like it's okay to calm down Kumbaya yeah is probably annoying Sam's not handling it well yeah we don't know what actually happen we don't need to care and that's the beautiful thing and the problem is I mean the other thing is when it comes to the show they have to have conflict there has to be drama every season and it's almost impossible to avoid because you can't put 25 30 women in a house and everybody get along you're just gonna have personalities that Clash same with the men on the show but they're also going to do whatever they can like you said pull you aside in an itm and say hey what do you think about what Crystal did at the bowling day today like of course they're going to encourage it so it's very I don't know if you want to call it hypocritical I kind of call it hypocritical of the show to say Hey you know everyone every season we'll get something where it's like hey stop bullying our contestants they're real people you don't need to take it out yet they're encouraging it behind the scenes because they're asking you in an itm to basically talk about another contant yeah I just wish I could go into the rooms where they're fighting and just like a kind of a ghostly figure just be like you'll All Be Friends by Paradise you know it happens every time every time we paint each other out to be the worst person humanly possible you know and then they're like BFFs on Paradise so just yeah don't worry about it yeah and I think come Andel all obviously Sam is going to be a focal point of men tell all Devin won't be at the men tell all but Sam will and I'd be curious like as I've always said of people who've tried to fight their edit when you get to when the show is airing when you get to the tell all just even if you don't believe it just say you know watching myself back I realized I could have handled myself a little bit better in situations that's what he needs to go even if he hates Devon's guts and never wants to talk to him again just say that but if you sit there and try and fight it and say well you know what Devon really did this and he really pushed my you're not g to win you're just not you know and I think as you say people are having a hard time you know with criticism it's just like you got to also understand nobody in this world not even just this show in this world is universally liked there are people that are just not going to like Sam for whatever reason whatsoever they might just not like his hairstyle but he's trying to be liked by everybody and it's just and I and family chiming in on social media is the same thing they want their son to be liked by everybody they're just not going to convince them does yeah yeah but it's not possible that's the thing you have to accept it's not possible and we're I think we're having a moment where really really goodlook white guys with slightly dead eyes you know they maybe don't make us feel so comfortable it's like we look at them and we're like you're probably a boy or a narcissist maybe doesn't mean he is doesn't mean he is but you PCT you pinpointed him as that that's what you thought he was right or he said he should yeah no not narcissist uh boy probably I mean I would be if I were him I was when I was him you know yeah I I mean I just don't but whatever like I'm not in his head I don't and by the way I really don't he's not a narciss I'm not saying yeah I'm just saying like guys who look like him I think that they strike the the fear of narcissism in our hearts because girls have been over by guys that look like him a lot and act like him he's very very smooth you know and I think she's maybe right to eventually in this season start being a little bit careful of that and start trying to look for some more depth um and he he definitely comes across I I mean I don't know the exact definition of narcissist but he comes across to me as just very self-absorbed he's very into himself and I think he thinks he's God's gift to women and he's just baffled by the fact that as we talked about earlier like he doesn't understand why she could like someone like Devon and like someone like him because clearly their connection has been strictly physical for four episodes we've seen this they Maul each other every chance they can get and it's just as we know I mean it's like that can only go so far in a relationship I mean that once that wears off you kind of have to be with a partner that you actually enjoy spending time with and I don't know if Jen enjoys spending time with Sam without their tongue in each other's mouths you know I don't I don't either but if I were a bachelor I would probably pick out a couple guys who just have that with too you know be like I'm not even gonna worry about any more to this connection I had a a dating coach um on my podcast and he was like if you have 10 out of 10 chemistry with somebody never call them again like you do not want 10 out of 10 chemistry you want like seven or eight out of you know out of 10 chemistry that's the good Zone it's like you definitely got chemistry but it's not overwhelming you it's not blinding you and it's not based on you know like do they like me today like oh my God I I I did something terribly wrong now they're going to reject me and now they're going to leave me and so now I have to get them back and a lot of that is chemistry right so I feel like she and Devon have a great amount of chemistry where you know she's clearly attracted to him but she's more attracted to talking to him and that's what's going to sustain her so you talked about uh you mentioned your podcast which is a little help for our friends that you uh I think you took about a month break maybe it was like six weeks right June J and then you came back in July bre all the time okay you take breaks all the time yeah so recently you had on a you had a topic of BPD and I wanna I I want you to give your because I've heard so many definitions of of BPD and I I I really am curious to hear your answer as to what BPD is and is there a way to like what are some of the characteristics of somebody that has BPD will exude yeah so BPD is a personality disorder um it by personality disorder we mean that the symptoms that they exhibit are persistent and pervasive so um these symptoms don't tend to go away over time they've lasted for years and years and years they show up not just in one domain so like somebody could be um could show these symptoms just in their dating or romantic life but if they don't exhibit them also maybe like at work or with their family or in other social groups then you don't have a personality disorder you just have something going on with dating so we kind of need those two criterias and it has to be impairing um I mean symptoms include um real fears of Abandonment and kind of attempts to prevent abandonment that can feel pretty desperate big emotional Li libility so your mood can be shifting big time like even just in the course of a few hours or minutes um you might exhibit like suicidality a lot of suicidal ideation maybe attempts and self harm you might have a really kind of confused sense of identity so maybe your career interest shifts your your hobbies shift your um style might shift you kind of I in here like don't really know who you are or what your goals might be um there can be big displays of anger really kind of quick to anger and that anger is really big there's impulsivity and uh there can be a pervasive sense of emptiness I don't I wasn't counting I don't know if I got all nine symptoms but what's really important to understand about BPD is that you need five out of nine symptoms to qualify for this diagnosis that means that there are 256 different combinations for what BPD could mean and it can mean that somebody with if we've got these symptoms somebody with my God this is so hard to do when the camera flipped okay with with these symptoms could have BPD but then oh my God but wait I can't do this I have no no spatial intelligence at all the point is you can be overlapping with only one symptom and you could both have BPD so when you ask me to Define BPD I just want to be really careful that like it doesn't look any one particular way these are just sort of Trends and and there's a there's typically an origin story of being very very invalidated in childhood you know for a very long time and for typically these kind these people will be sort of temperamentally sensitive so these might be babies that cried a lot that were you know quick quicker to freak out um to get upset um just more sensitive emotionally it's kind of scary listening to you to find that because gosh I I don't know how much you follow the Clayton case but you really you really described a lot of the personality traits symptoms whatever you want to call it of the woman that was involved with Clayton and accused him you know fak the pregnancy on him and all this stuff uh just Clayton The Bachelor yeah oh do you not know this you don't know any about oh gosh yeah we can't go there it take forever it take forever um oh yeah no it's a whole thing yeah I mean I mean the short version is a woman uh accused him of impregnating her and it went to Family Court took 13 months because she was legit crazy and a judge ruled against it and said it basically ruled in in Clayton's favor but there's so many more details like again this would take months but yeah um that's what happened and um but she got an order of protection against him he got an order of protection against her because he was able to show 500 phone calls and emails and texts that she sent him over the course of a you know three-month period and it's in those emails where we kind of saw I think the first thing you said was you know issues of Abandonment and this is somebody that clearly you know she would um they hooked up one night and he told her the next but they didn't have sex um it was just oral sex Clayton said this under oath he said it to me when I talked to him three days after the story broke he said Steve I never even had sex with her so her claiming that she was pregnant with my children is just a Flatout lie it was oral sex it was twice and so I know that she was never pregnant but she he told her the next day because this was a real estate deal and she went to him for some investment property stuff they hooked up one night he told her the next day they were sitting in a car he told her look I crossed the line last night shouldn't have happened and he said from that moment forward she basic basally just lost it basically a guy I was like man you didn't even ghost her you told her to her face like hey shouldn't have happened last night but I don't think this is anything more going forward and from that point forward a woman who texts you emails you and calls you over 500 times in a three-month span and send you emails saying just give me a chance give it two weeks and if if you don't think if you don't think it can work between us after two weeks she like literally wrote out a dating contract for him if this can't happen in two weeks then I'll take the abortion pill and he's just like what are you talking about like stop contacting me I told you I don't want to be with you please just give me a chance I know I can I know we can be a good couple together and it was just and then it just got worse and worse for her because it was bad it's it's it's it's the put it this way I mean it went on for 13 months they hooked up May 20th 2023 the judge ruled on June 18th of this year she ruled six weeks ago it's the craziest story that ever happened to anybody in ation history and it's not even close of what Clayton went through with this woman for 13 months so but yeah and some of the things that you described to me I was just like that's her I think and people have said like she's just not all there and I think it's some sort of Borderline Personality Disorder with her because of the things that she said and this idea that she you know again I don't want get too deep into the weeds here because everybody that's listening already knows this story but come to find out she had done this to two other men in Arizona where she claimed pregnancy and then took them to court like so that's what I mean I think it's just men that don't want her and she lashes out by claiming pregnancy to keep them in her Circle in her web I don't know but when you say you've been pregnant by three different men and have had you know and have lost the babies three different times in a span of six years of three men in Arizona that all said they don't want to have anything to do with you I'm sorry you lose credibility you know well of course I mean I you know I can't like diagnose somebody without talking to them so yeah I mean Spidey senses when when somebody's exhibits really extreme Behavior over a long period of time my thoughts go to a possible personality disorder um I don't know I mean could be a contender but yeah no it was it was it's like I said crazy a story in anybody that's ever dealt with uh anything happened to them in Bach Nation nobody has dealt with what Clayton dealt with for the last 13 months that sucks yeah no it was bad um but you know when you when you had on who was the one last time that we talked about that wasn't border that was multiple personality dis order right dissociative identity disorder yeah yeah that was that that's completely different from BPD yeah okay yeah and that one explain that story again quickly to people that don't remember when we had you on last time and you had just had a guest on that was suffering from what used to be called multiple personality disorder but it now has a new name what am I explaining did or how or that guest that guest yeah and what they were diagnosed with well she was diagnosed with did um yeah she's a patient of a friend of mine but she was also a patient at Duke so my friend went through the same you know we are both at Duke uh and she then stayed on with Caitlyn and agreed to come on the podcast um and talk about her experience and her treatment with Caitlyn so what made this kind of cool is that the the typical treatment for did is integration so you know basically somebody with did has these multiple personalities we'll call them altars or parts and these personalities have fully different personalities and basically the point of them is that you know this is a trauma Disorder so a child has been severely traumatized repeatedly and they are too small and fragile to cope with something with the enormity of the you know of the trauma that they're experiencing and so part of them dissociates and they can dissociate so much that there's like a part of them that Cleaves off so that that part only handles some aspect of the trauma maybe they cleave off and so some other part handles only an aspect of coping so for instance this this person who came on had um a personality who held all the anger and he this is a the um the part was a he he would go in and anytime Molly needed to be assertive essentially her part that held the anger called Slayer Slayer Slayer yeah so he would come in and be angry and and this makes sense if you think about like a little kid who's being severely traumatized by her caretakers can't safely Express anger because it is asking for more trauma right but at the same time a person a human being can't just never be angry so she could dissociate into this other identity that held the anger then only that personality would have to you know handle the backlash or would have to handle those feelings of anger and could maybe uh come to be when it was safe to be angry but Molly herself wasn't in a position where anger was safe so yeah so she had you know all these different personalities and they it's a fascinating disorder they kind of live in her mind in a set of rooms but there's like a living space and they can all commune there and they all have rules and they can all kind of talk about who gets to inhabit her at a given time um and you know most so most treatment aims for integration so that basically all these personalities reintegrate into just one person but Molly was not interested in that she and neither were her alars you know that's a common problem is they're like um I'm not really sure that I want to go away so she and Caitlyn instead kind of worked to have a system where they could all exist but they had to figure out how to coexist successfully so they developed rules they all kind of individually had trauma treatment with Caitlyn and um it just became much more of a a systematic process than just are like I'm online now and I'm going to wreak havoc ever since you had her on Molly have you gotten any updates or been in touch is are things improving with her are they getting worse they getting better saying the same have you gotten any updates or no I haven't gotten updates I haven't asked I mean she was willing to talk on the podcast deidentified um but I can't but but that she and Caitlyn were both here and so she led the conversation what she was willing to divulge but patient confidentiality still exists so I wouldn't then go ask Caitlyn like how's Molly doing what's up like do you know what I mean like yeah the agreement kind of ended when the podcast ended gotcha but they've been in therapy for a very long time and it's been a solid upward trajectory for many years so I imagine it's still upward so you mentioned last thing here before we we head out um the fact that you know this started at Duke and you've been in your PhD program at Duke but now somebody is moving up in the world and you are having leave Duke next month uh correct you have to you're moving back to New York for I think a year or something like that you have to do it for one year and explain everybody what that's going to consist ofh when the move is actually happening how you're coping with um it you you looking forward to it are you obviously you have you have a boyfriend that lives in North Carolina and obviously you're gonna have to do the longdistance thing with him for a year but explain to everybody what's coming up for you in the next year okay so um a PhD is six years I've done five the last year is called internship it takes place at usually a different institution so you have to you have to apply it's like applying for grad school again but it's a match process so after you interview you rank your choices they rank you and then you're just told you're going somewhere so I was told I'm going to the Bronx VA obviously in New York City um I feel good about the program I mean it's a competitive program uh and I'm going to really really strengthen my trauma training which is a huge goal of mine it's going to be a very different population I think it'll be an awesome learning experience am I excited about New York I mean yes and no like you've lived there before so you're not like going somewhere you've never been yeah I mean I love New York I love it I'm also 33 now and I've been living a very different life for the past 5 years I mean we are right now sitting in my art studio um I have an entire room where I have like painting supplies quilling supplies stained art supplies a guitar weights I'm not going to have that in New York you know like this is what I do for fun now like I I can't drink alcohol the way I used to I don't even want to see friends the way I used to like most of the time I just want to be by myself and with my hobbies um and I'm right now I'm on paid summer vacation basic I'm just mean I have to work on my dissertation but am I working on my dissertation I mean a little bit so you know I don't know I'm I'm I would be more excited obviously if I were not in a relationship because long distance is not something I'm looking forward to but it is what it is I mean I'm sure I'm very adaptable I like change I'll deal with it I would feel better if I had an apartment but I don't know where I'm going to live yet and I would also feel better if I weren't going to make so so few dollars while I'm there you know do they do they pay for your housing no oh my program pays me 40K which is one of the highest internship calories you can have it's usually less than grad school so uh I don't know how I'm going to do it I mean last time I did it because I let men pay for my food like what am I gonna do now and I've inherited a shopping addiction since or developed a shopping addiction an online shopping addiction yeah an anywhere shopping addiction I mean I just got rid of nine trash bags filled with clothes okay and I still have two closets that are filled with broom with clothes plus drawers and you haven't found a place yet in New York no because here's the thing a Apartments don't really become available until the month of so that's a problem B I have such a low income that no renters want me and then I have a cat so no sublets want me I don't know boy I'm gonna be but we're gonna it's gonna be fine we're gonna make it work and then I'll be back back home and I'm going to have one year of making like an okay salary and I'm going to get married and have a baby there you go well good luck for all that I know it's a big change for you obviously you've been in North Carolina the last five years but now you're ready now you're ready to spread your wings for a year in New York and go back and yeah see as you fly away yeah um but yeah know I mean it's obviously I am happy that you are going someplace that you've lived to be for so that's at least a good thing but not not in your you're not living in like you said when you were in your 20s in New York obviously your living was a lot different and this is for you know adult life schooling you're going to be in school this isn't going to be like living in New York when you were in your 20s but at least it's someplace you're familiar with as opposed to getting sent somewhere where you know absolutely nobody yeah I have tons of friends in New York I basically go to New York to have a social life when I'm here I don't don't social so no I mean it'll be fine it'll be fine just I'm having a nice I'm having a nice moment in my life right now and I don't really want it to end yeah no that sucks I mean you only got like you said what a month left and then you gotta leave and then school starts what beginning of September I know and is this something like every like this is you have to when you when you applied can you tell us like the other places you apply to and then you said they pick for you and you get told where to go where else did you apply to that you were looking at um I applied to places around here like Duke andc um durv then there was an inpatient hospital I appli to the DC VA the Philly VA and then a bunch of places in New York basically but you know I mean it's about fit it's it's a it's a crap shoot you know like with Duke for instance um I didn't match which is like it's one of those things where it's like when they're thinking about taking somebody of their own maybe that's a good idea but maybe they're like well what else do we really have to teach her like what would you know what would be the point yeah um with other places it might be a personality fit I mean but then there's also rules about you know the places around here like they'll only accept a c like they'll usually only accept one Duke student so there's just like weird rules but mostly I applied in New York and gotcha and and look you got it I know it's going to be a change but I know that you can you'll be able to handle it and everything will be fine and like you said it's not like you're going away and you have a three-year program or a five-year program it's one year sure it'll be tough in the beginning but you'll get used to it and you'll be fine on the back end of it and the plan is to move back to North Carolina I assume at that point yeah Jason I Stay Together which is the plan yeah there you go well good luck with all good luck with all that again you can listen to Jacqueline's podcast little help for our friends which is on Apple and Spotify wherever you listen to your podcast Jacqueline thank you so much again for coming on sorry that the camera was flipped and you didn't know how to use your fingers to do the overlapping thing but hey it all it worked so I realized I could have just like looked at the looked at my hands in front of me instead of like trying to figure it out that's right you were looking at the camera when you did that instead of looking at your hand yeah okay um yeah thanks again uh for coming on really appreciate it and obviously we'll be in touch yeah thanks for continu continuously inviting me on you got it bye bye