Ken Rosenthal on Garrett Crochet Non-Trade, Cardinals Tough Decisions, Tight NL West

Intro I looked this up the other day this is amazing to think about this would be if this happens the first time they've had back-to-back losing seasons in full campaigns since 1958 59 what I reported was that the Phillies and Dodgers were in as late as the final 24 hours and that the Dodgers were still talking to the white socks in the final hour now you might say well why were they doing that knowing that he would want an extend to pitch in the postseason that was very much public and the reason is his talent and the teams that were looking at him were looking at him not just for this year when who knows what they were going to get one way or the other it's his first year starting but for 25 and 26 when the fact of the matter is you'd be getting an ace starter at reasonable arbitration salaries combined probably about 15 million Max in those two years and he's a guy who has pitched like an H this year so for that reason those teams stayed in and you can understand why they stayed in now why didn't it happen it didn't happen simply because the White Sox did not get the package that they wanted and you might say well how high were they aiming my understanding is pretty high and you can understand why they were aiming pretty high here's a guy making $60,000 above the minimum he's pitching like an ace this year you got the two more years coming and that's a pretty rare thing in the market and basically in the opinion of others in the industry the white sock were not out of line to ask for a team's very best Prospect now they didn't get it but maybe in the offseason they'll try again fact I expect they will try again did you get all this information only after the deadline or did were you hearing some things like that or were you just hearing the teams I was hearing some things before the deadline Eric but I don't hold back when I get stuff so I continued pursuing it in the final or the last week or so and one reason I continued pursuing it was Jason Stark who you guys had on Crochet non-trade yesterday he heard right after the deadline this was right after that there was some big Prospect names thrown around that the White Sox could have made a deal that this was more serious and close than we thought and I made a mental note to myself to check back on that when I got back from vacation and that's what I did Ken question for you because I think a bunch of us are sitting there scratching our heads at the deadline where the white socks should have and had and should have had the high uh asking price for a bunch of their prospects whether it was crochet or uh Luis Robert or anything like that why does it feel I'm GNA switch it up just a little bit why does it feel like they kind of settled on what they took for Fetti and the other deals instead of and why did they come down on that asking price instead of these other ones that's a great question Jason a lot of people in the game are asking that question that when you trade fetty and Tommy fam why are you only getting what you got back in return Miguel Vargas and two minor Leaguers that to me is still something that we're going to have to judge in the years to come we'll see how these players perform for the white socks whether they do really well or not but it was in the estimation of some a very low return or a light return put it that way and as I always say these things are hard to judge in the moment because we don't know how these players are going to perform maybe that trade looks better over time maybe it looks worse but it was interesting that you had fetty who was very much in demand he hasn't pitched that well for St Louis but at the time he was I don't know one of the top three or four starters available flarity was ahead of him crochet was ahead of him Snell if you want to count him sure but fetty was along with Zack effin in that next group so they could have maybe done a better deal but they chose what they chose and again over time we'll see how that plays out from Sandy Alcantara's Future with the Marlins the white talks to the Marlins Ken I want to ask you about Sandy alcantra obviously his name hasn't come up for the most part this year because he's been recovering from Tommy John surgery we saw the Tweet yesterday from Craig Mish saying the team actually informed him that he won't be traded in the off season is that normal and also is that like a Steve Nash alley to Amari stmy maybe I'm dating myself a little bit because uh you know I don't see trades often with Tommy John guys coming back even of his ilk if they stink and it's May it could be a rise again no absolutely it could be and it's awfully charitable of the Marlins to inform Sandy alantra that they're not going to trade him his value is down of course they're not going to trade him but the moment his value starts building back up again after he returns next season yes they've got two more years of pretty good money I think it's 16 17 million a year of course they're going to entertain it so that report of course it was a fair report reasonable to report that but from the Marlin's perspective I was thinking okay great you're not going to trade a guy coming off Tommy John congratulations are the Marlins getting close if they if they do that if they do that in May next year a contra comes back and he gets traded are they at risk of being investigated for the similar thing that like the Pirates were investigated for not competing because it is a stark just tear down of everything if you go and trade that that pitcher who could actually help your team in some way or is that is am I completely off on that no not at all they were one of the teams named in that Players Association grievance along with the Pirates the A's and the Rays if I'm not mistaken now that grievance has not gone anywhere it's several years old now but you can make the case that yes they are not spending to the level that they should be considering the revenue sharing they're receiving the other side of that Eric is that they've accumulated a lot of talent and the way the game is as much as we don't like it but the way it goes is that basically teams are allowed I guess is the right word I don't know maybe that's not the right word but they operate in a way that they can just basically be free in how they go about it so maybe the Marlins could make the case yeah we're doing this we're tearing down but look at all the talent we've collected and now we're going to build back up again teams have the right to operate basically however they want now the Players Association can file a grievance when they feel these teams are not spending to the level that they should be but it's kind of hard to prove that as we've seen hasn't been established yet when you have a team like them or like the Orioles a few years ago kind of just collecting talent and looking for a better day I don't like what the Marlins did coming off a playoff appearance I hated it but this is the route they're choosing and we'll see where it goes all right talked about it yesterday with Jason Stark about the the double Hook and the six inning rule where do you sit on it in the sense of how close are we to implementing something and I know I'm really broad stroking because Rob Thompson just said last night after reacting to the article he said well has to be something that's instituted in the minor leagues before it's instituted in the big leagues how close are we to moving in that direction I don't sense that we're all that close Eric and yes Rob Thompson made a good point that something like that the sixth inning rule in particular would have to be phased in over time you can't just go zero to 100 with these things and the double hook to me you can Implement that tomorrow and I don't know that it would be a detriment to anyone I don't know why they wouldn't do that but as we both know the sport moves slowly and for all the talk about these dramatic changes that were in effect last year implemented last year took a long time to get to that point so I don't expect anything to happen soon right now Major Reviving the Starting Pitcher League Baseball is conducting a start study on the health of starting pitching and how to keep pitchers healthy in general I imagine they want that to be kind of completed before they go forward here but all of these things that have come up first when Jason and I wrote in May about this and then of course yesterday when Jesse Rogers from ESPN wrote his story these are ideas that are kind of percolating and there is seemingly a consensus that the sport does need to revive the starting pitcher I don't know that anyone would argue that for the sake of entertainment now it might not be the best way to win a game in the present circumstances you might say I'd rather have my guy go four Innings than bring in my parade of 95 M hour relievers okay that might be the best way to win a game and that's the way front offices have to operate it's not necessarily the best product and as Jason point pointed out yesterday and as we wrote in that story in May it used to be the question every fan asked before going to a game was who's pitching tonight now that question has been diminished yeah I'm with you I hope it gets solved but we'll have a lot of time in the offseason to hit it too um and he's he's right I mean man we were talking 10 years ago about the pitch clock and then it finally came to play what you know last season so all right let's get back to the field I you just you just said it it was like so many years ago you looked at okay it's a starting pitcher well so many years ago there was there was the game of the week was on now we live in a generation of I want this now for 10 minutes I want to do the I want this so aren't isn't the game kind of Shifting with like hey I just want the best pitcher I want to see most velocity hardest swings go get them you know in a sense you saying it there Eric no question it shifted to that my question in response would be is this the best product now for people who like swing and miss and who like seeing guys throw a 95 and blowing out yeah it may be the best product I don't know that ultimately it is the best way to keep your fans engaged to the highest level certainly fans are engaged now the sport is doing fine but the starting pitcher and the role of the starting pitcher the stud guy on the mound hopefully for six seven eight Innings that's kind of disappeared and I do believe something has been lost in this transition to where we are now it's disappeared but hasn't it been like then doesn't it mean more when you have one of those guys who consistently goes six seven eight Innings instead of like forcing it that becomes a luxury then like hey we got guys who can save the bullpen arms and pre-b back like go back so we have a a bullpen game the next day or have our full strength the next day I feel like it's a luxury to try to force it to happen or to make guys go the knee reaction is it's not about health that it's not going to be like hey we're going to hang this guy out to dry when he doesn't have his good stuff or he's going to if he comes out early it's always going to have to be an injury or something like that or I don't know it just it feels like you're forcing something that doesn't need to be there and this might not be the best way to solution I think just starting pitchers getting better and stretching them out and going to the worrying less about vo and maybe still a little bit more about pitching I think is the answer forward instead of trying to create a rules that's just mine Jas no Jason you have a great point there and I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying the problem is to get to where you're talking about stretching out starting pitchers and bringing the game back to that way it was before you might have to legislate it because the teams are going to operate the way teams operate trying to max out every night with their bullpens and best stuff available and you're not going to have the starting pitcher emphasized under this current condition that the game is in to get the game to that point just as with the pitch clock you had to have the pitch clock because the players just would not abide by what was trying to be enforced by the umpires well you might need to put something in effect here to enhance the role of the starting pitcher now again as Jesse wrote there would have to be qualifiers you'd have to have I don't know 100 pitch limit if a guy is struggling in the fourth inning you'd have to get guys out of games if you needed to it wouldn't be an absolute hard and fast you have to pitch six Innings but at the same time it's an idea worth exploring as all of these different proposals are and I know a lot of people and Jason maybe you're one of them feel there's been too much change in the game and we should just calm down a little bit and there's something to be said for that I get that argument completely I just again believe from an entertainment standpoint not from a competitive standpoint entertainment drawing fans in making your game more attractive bringing back the scherers and the Verlander and making those guys getting more of them that would be something in the game's interest doesn't that diminish the role of the manager then real quick if they always have their best guys available and all this stuff like because then you're losing the the risk in the decision-making of the top managers where how can they juggle a bullpen how can they which guys to play on this day knowing they have this guy tomorrow if you always have like your best guys going or something like that it's what's the point of a manager kind of well I would suggest that the role of the manager is all already diminished the front office is calling a lot of the shots so where we go it doesn't [Laughter] matter all right lastly let's finish with this you got Cardinals and Dodgers this weekend you know I know we addressed the Cardinals you talked about them yesterday on Fair territory so maybe we can go on the Dodgers side but go wherever you want to go if you have something to share with us I mean I think the main point here is um you got to win the division first or you would think I don't think the Dodgers are The NL West Race going to be very pleased if they end up as a wild card maybe even without home games if they fall out of that round I don't expect they would be pleased either but considering their performance as a buy team the last couple of years maybe that's the way to go okay they don't want to lose the division they obviously want to win the division it's down to two games the Diamondbacks and Padre's are redot can they sustain this both those teams the rest of the season that remains to be seen and the Dodgers are getting healthier they're in a situation where month and edman are going to come back with book with bets already there so I expect they're going to play well down the stretch maybe not well enough but we'll see and what's interesting for the Dodgers is all that matters and we've talked about this all season guys is October and what is the best path for them in October I would suggest it's not going through four rounds it's going through three considering where their pitching has been all season long but it's going to be a really interesting stretch drive and the Dodgers bull pen it's going to get better in the weeks ahead too and tring comes back and brazer comes back but that's been a question so it's kind of a fascinating thing right now to see where they are in comparison to those other two teams and from the Cardinals perspective they're facing a tough part of their schedule now obviously starting with the Dodgers and they've got the Brewers and the Padres this is making or break it for them and they cannot afford to Dilly around anymore they're under 500 they're the third worst run differential in the National League which is astonishing to me worst run differential than the Nationals and they're a team that has been an extreme disappointment I don't expect things are going to change much for them in the weeks ahead so they're going to face some really difficult questions at season's end if the season does not get any better for them because I looked this up the other day this is amazing to Cards Back-to-Back Losing Seasons? think about this would be if this happens the first time they've had back-to-back losing seasons in full campaigns not strike interrupted or Co interrupted or anything like that since 1958 59 haven't had back-to-back losing seasons in full season since then that tells you about where they are that is incredible yeah Cardinals fans should be like wow I mean look at what we've done um for a long time you're spoiled and on the Dodgers side Ken you know I just thought about when you said that the NBA has had times in the last two decades where you buy a super team and then you win and you're a dynasty and all that and you kind of know what's going to happen MLB has super teams and they have definitely a much lower percentage chance of winning a World Series let alone putting two together well to revive an old argument this is why when fans scream and yell about the Dodgers spending too much money or the Yankees spending too much money I always think no it's fine these teams aren't guaranteed to win that's first of all and the second part of that is when you have a Cleveland or a Milwaukee to me it is that much more satisfying when those other teams go down and you're there so I'm not saying that's going to happen and I'm not saying the sport is in a right perfect economic situation where there's balance no there's not we know there's not economic balance there's too much disparity I get it but with where we are now if I were a fan of one of those teams one of the smaller Market teams that's having such success I'd be loving every second of it yeah the Underdog Story it's so cool the story lines are great they unique and it's not predictable so Ken enjoy the weekend we'll watch you on Fox C Cardinals and uh Dodgers on Saturday and we'll talk to you next week thanks guys thank you ft senior Insider Ken Rosenthal hosting Fair territory Mondays and Thursdays hey everybody be sure to like And subscribe for more content we're back here every weekday all year long so do not miss an episode the videos are coming in all day here's another video you might enjoy baseball the way it should be covered [Music]