Liz Cheney Endorses Kamala Harris Over Donald Trump + Interview w/ CNN's Dana Bash

Intro joining us now she's CNN's Chief political correspondent in the anchor who co-moderated the first presidential debate back in June and landed kamla Harris's first interview as the Democratic nominee she's now the author along with David fiser of America's deadliest election the cautionary tale of the most violent election in American history Dan and Bash welcome to the Pod oh my gosh I'm so excited it's good to Dana Bash interview have you longtime listener first time caller so before we get to your book um I want to start by talking about your incredibly busy summer uh which began with you and Jake Tapper moderating what might have been the most consequential presidential debate of our lifetime maybe ever um can you talk a little bit about the process for preparing for that debate how do you think about the questions how do you think about when to jump in during an exchange well the jumping in first of all thank you so much for being here it's awesome to see you the jumping in was limited by the rules the rules were very strict and we're now seeing with the ABC um rules coming out that they you know everybody has their own set of rules there are similar but to ours but have looks like they have like an additional minute or so so that's the answer to that we're um there was a lot of structure let's put it that way and but in terms of the prep it's um the way I kind of describe the team here it's like Avengers Assemble because we have so many superheroes that do different things that have different superpowers and when it's time to do a big event and didn't get much bigger than this yeah everybody comes together and we prepare for for a very long time I mean I guess we maybe by these standards we didn't have that long but uh by debate standards but we had you know three weeks four weeks and so it's the churning it's maybe it's not that different from like the process of writing a speech where you have an idea you have a set of principles you have a a loose and then you put it together but you have to make edits and make changes because it it feels wrong here or it doesn't feel exactly on Mark there and we do that with um a fantastic as I said group of superheroes and who have been doing this for a long time at CNN both from the production team to the researchers and on and on and then we just we go through it over and over and the new cycle changes um things in the world change they say things on the stomp that make us you know amend the approach that we're taking to a certain issue and and then we just play it out do you have people play the candidates oh yeah that's cool yeah we we have people play the candidates and it's I mean I don't I can't imagine doing a debate without that process because it really does help inform how something is coming across and maybe not coming across as we intended and uh I will say for these mock debates I'll let you in on a little secret we did not mock for the actual debate that we had oh wow just because there wasn't enough time no it just we didn't expect that to be the way the debate went oh oh oh well I was going to ask him well I was I was gonna get to that I imagine like do you do you guys talk about how to handle Trump who is unusual and that he enjoys yelling not only at his opponents and interrupting them but like yelling at the moderators and interrupting moderators and debates we practice for everything got it knowing yeah knowing the uh the nature of the candidates and how they tend to act and react in in debates and interviews and other scenarios absolutely the thing about this debate which ABC is going to deal with as well is that he could have yelled at me or yelled at Jake any time he was free to use his time however he wanted yeah but he couldn't do it when his mic was off and so these rules and this is obviously you know far better than I why the Harris team wanted to change that and and not have muted mics because we all realized real time especially the Biden team who wanted to impose that rule that it was actually a built-in set of guard rails for Donald Trump which his campaign was thrilled about but you didn't really see the kind of trump who we saw in several of the debates in 2020 yeah I'm wondering how much you think the muted mics debate matters like did you guys could you guys hear Trump when he when his mic was muted so could like I I don't know how that worked actually we were in a relatively small studio and I I'm guessing ABC will have a similar situation because they don't have an audience like we did so yes you can hear um the challenge is how much the audience can hear right because the mic is muted and they're close so you could potentially pick it up on another mic so did a lot of practicing for that but what happened in reality is that knowing that the mic was off Trump really didn't say much when his mic was off and when Biden was speaking so it kind of prevented him from acting out so it was it was forgive me moot that's interesting that's interesting um what was your reaction in the moment to Biden's performance like what do you remember thinking when it was five minutes in 10 minutes in okay well let me ask you this well I actually think I've already asked you this on the air but I'll ask you this on your your podcast what were you thinking from the first minute I mean I thought before the debate that it could go fine or it could go really badly even in my wildest imagination of how badly it could go I didn't not go to that level like I thought and I thought you know after the first five minutes I'm like uh slow start this is really bad he's got to pick this up at some point unfortunately people always remember the first five 10 minutes of a debate not the end so even if he's stronger at the end it's going to be tough but then by the time he got to you know we beat Medicare and and we killed Medicare yeah and then pivoting from like an abortion answer which should have been strong to like the killing of Americans by undocumented immigrants I was just like what is this is this is bad this is really bad yeah so that's that's we felt it we felt it and and I do think that it's possible that people at home had an even stronger reaction to it because we were seeing sort of the whole the whole scene in front of our actual eyes and at home you obviously saw for the most part the split screen so you saw the closest up shot so I think it was even more Stark yeah for viewers at home but yeah it was a holy moment there was some uh there was some criticism before and after the debate about CNN's decision not to do live factchecking how did you guys think about that leading into the debate wait there was criticism of our debate tell me more I'm just of it wild um of anything that we do uh uh no and you know what fair game that's that's uh that's being in the arena um I'm glad you asked that because we looked at the history of presidential debates since you know Kennedy Nixon modern presidential debat debates and we felt pretty much all of us or our bosses the exec the production team Jake and me that the way that that it is done best is for the moderators to facilitate but not be the story and not participate anymore than we have to because we're obviously asking the questions and it's it's a it's a debate it's between two individuals who want to be the leader of the Free World and um I recognize that in today's Times it is not the same as it was prior to 8 years ago never mind um you know other times in our history but it was we decided to use that traditional model that if and when Donald Trump said something that wasn't true which we did factchecking after the case after the fact which we telegraphed to everybody that we were going to do through our great Daniel Dale um 30 times he he he did not tell the truth he Donald Trump if if we were jump in we would be active participants as if I was doing an interview or we would do in a town hall that we moderate when there's not a political opponent there but that it was up to Joe Biden to do the wait a minute and um and and vice versa Joe Biden said a couple of things that were at least a couple of things that were just not accurate he suggested that no military service men had died on his watch and we know that's not true because people unfortunately were killed in in the um chaotic extraction from Afghanistan I'm not to say that they're I'm equating them because it was not the it was not the same amount when you look at the at the numbers when it was all said and done so that's what we had decided to do um the rules as I mentioned were such that they were very very structured and that was part of a negotiation that Jake and I had nothing to do with and it really came primarily at the beginning from from Team Biden who said that they wanted to do this early debate and and then there's also the question of the real-time factchecking and the and the and the pitfalls of it um we know the facts we have a generally have a sense of what each candidate particularly Donald Trump is going to say that's like what and not true because we do it in interviews um we've been interviewed him lately but in his for his surrogates and others but there's still like a we to do it we got to we got to have it right yeah and there is and there is um it's been done and it's and it's not worked out that well and it's dangerous yeah I mean look I my experience with this was in which I'm sure you know well in 2012 when uh Candy Crowley fact checked Mitt Romney during the debate with Barack Obama and obviously we were thrilled at the time that she did and also a little surprised that we we got the fact check I think it was yeah because I I didn't know that she would actually do that right but I think it was partly because both Romney and Obama were sort of staring at her and and being like see what do you think what do you like you know and Obama just kept saying look at the tape look at the look at the transcript look at the transcript and then Romney's kind of looking at candy and yeah it was so it was a tough position I'm a humongous Candy Crowley fan she's one of my um Heroes and mentors from when I first started here and it was it I'm glad that you gave that proper context because I remember they were looking at her like do something lady Y and um and we had prepped we had prepped for that exact moment really yes and so we've told this story before but Ben rhods Ben rhods especially when Obama was giving a practice answer about Benghazi and about when whether he called it terrorism or not said something like I I said terrorism in the in the uh in the Rose Garden speech and then Ben said no you got to say Act of Terror because that was exactly what was in the transcript and Obama's like why it's same thing right and Ben's like it's not the same thing and you've got to be precise and sure enough Obama was precise in the debate that's exactly what Romney called him out on so we had prepped for that moment and did you also prep for the when Romney calls him out and disputes it for like looking at Candy to say fix this I we that I think was Obama's instinct to just like give him enough rope because I think he knew he got him in that moment I do not know that he expected candy to jump in but um interesting it's very interesting uh so this this debate coming up uh on Tuesday what are you expecting and and what are you going to be paying particular attention to well based on our experience I am expecting literally anything yeah it's I'm expecting two individuals named Donald Trump and TLA Harris to be on a debate stage and that's the end of my expectation yeah it seems like they've like they've agreed on uh even though they're going to have muted mics they've agreed on letting the moderators step in when candidates interrupt and communicate to the audience when someone says something on a muted mic which sounds interesting well that's it's funny because that's really that's one of the challenges of having the muted mic because if you're uh KLA Harris and Donald Trump doesn't stay in his guard rails and he and he talks while she's talking and she can hear it but you the viewer can't hear it it's it it could get a little bit confusing so um that makes sense that the moderator will communicate to the audience like here's what's happening right now that you might not fully absorb and they're going to have the the both mics open during intense exchanges did I can't remember did you guys have that there weren't a lot of intense exchanges but no we didn't okay no that's Trump trump took his foot off the gas when he saw what was happening yes so you also landed the first big uh sitdown interview with KLA Harris and Tim Walls and I'm I'm so curious about how you prepare for something like that and approach the interview itself I mean especially you going into this interview there were entire pieces written about what questions should be asked uh there was a lot of pressure on the candidates and you since it was their first first interview uh you only had like 20 minutes like how did you think about what you wanted to get out of that interview that's such a good question because um there were so many ways to go because it was the first and and what I decided along with the Avengers that I described um which we had to assemble very quickly because I got the call Monday night and I had to be uh on the plane with her I was at the beach somewhere in the in the vicinity of VI vicinity of where you grew grew up but I'll leave that alone and and then it's where I was after the debate so yeah oh good okay so I um so I quickly you know got back to Washington and I was able to fly with her to Air Force to and meanwhile we were doing a lot of this obviously quickly and remotely and from far-flung places but but what we decided was that this needed to be like foundational um because of the nature of her candidacy she was you know shot out of a cannon she was still fully I mean she was I think at that point she had just done like one little piece of her economic plan and for the most part it was her agenda was Joe Biden's agenda um which still is largely but she's starting to since then um separate herself a little bit and be her own person but that was the the foundational part of the interview that I thought was so important which is you have basically been the understudy for almost four years how much are you going to do the role like the lead and how much are you going to make it your own and so those were some of the the that was the thought proc process behind some of the the key questions including you know D pun intended drilling down on issues like fracking yeah uh which is like table stakes in a place like Pennsylvania which she has to win and I thought it was interesting that she was obviously prepared for that and she wanted to make it extraordinarily clear that she is not going to ban fracking like she wanted to get that out there right away to which you know I can't there was there were a lot of um there was a lot of commentary on the the kinds of questions and whether or not that was you know oh that was written by Maga or whatever but you appreciate this as a you'll appreciate this as a um Democratic strategist that my impression and nobody ever said this to me my impression is her campaign wanted her to say that because if you're an undecided voter in in Pennsylvania and you think of that this is like a big issue for you you want to hear it if you're already voting for kamla Harris who cares like they got them in the in the bag and if you're already going to vote for Donald Trump and you're not persuadable who cares it's it's going to be such a a campaign We Believe on the margins that that kind of stuff really matters so she was eager to ask uh to be asked questions like that to try to to explain and more broadly like her thought process she was a candidate for a brief time in the 2020 cycle she left uh in 2019 and she had a very different sensibility in that time not very different somewhat different in that time than she does now which in many ways is understandable because she's the understudy so how much have you changed because you learned on the job or how much have you changed for other reasons yeah I I have I didn't catch too much of the of criticism from the left but when I did I thought it was sort of insane CU it was like it was like a very fair interview of questions that like I'm a democratic I'm a former Democratic operative who still considers myself an activist and like I would have asked those questions can I take this quote and like put it on a pillow and then take a picture of it and pin it to my social media I mean it like I I remember I interviewed her when she was running in 2019 in the primary and that was in in that case it was she had this record as a prosecutor um and as attorney general which sometimes was like a little more moderate than the position she had taken in 2020 in the primary and I just like dug into those and she wasn't mad no one you know like she you expect that if you're a candidate that's the whole that's what you get prepared for you know absolutely and and it's in in normal times she would have been going through that with uh with other candidates against her and a democ atic primary process and with voters pressing her on those issues but that's not where we are well I think you did a great job in the interview uh so okay your book some people may not know much about the uh 1872 Louisiana group tutorial election and its repercussions um prior to preparing for this interview I was one of those people uh why why did you decide to write a book about that election you know I'm so glad when smart people like you say I didn't know anything about it it makes me feel so much better know anything about it um I mean I knew some like I KN I heard cfax Massacre particularly after the 2021 debacle because it was kind of in the conversation about the ramifications for that which I'll get to in a second of that and and 1872 and then the 1876 election um which was an election where the Electoral College was a mess and Congress had to deal with the mess that they got because four states gave them multiple slates of electors because they couldn't figure out who actually won in their states back then it was because there was actual corruption there was actual fraud and there was disenfranchisement of black voters new black voters because it was during Reconstruction and uh and so it was genuine unlike what we saw in 2020 which was allegations of fraud and Corruption which there was no evidence of at least presented in any court of law so that's a really big difference um but going back to 1872 and Louisiana my uhu my co-author David fiser approached me with this Dan Abrams actually who wrote A Few books with with David fiser somebody came to him with the idea or he had the idea or something but anyway that he put us together and I sort of said the same thing like I how do I not know about this because the South was still licking its wounds in a big way the Civil War had just ended and segregationists racists in the South were still trying to cling to the notion you know they they didn't have free labor anymore with slaves but they were still trying to cling to the notion that the white race is the sup Supreme race and black people should not have the same rights that they have and after during Reconstruction a lot of um black elected officials were sent into um not a lot but comparatively black officials were sent for the first time into Congress and into elected offices all over the South because they were representing the people who were voting for them the um Democrats then because of course everything was in reverse the Democratic uh solid South the segregationist said well we have to stop this and they realized that the way to do that was at The Ballot Box and you know the things that we hear today and we see today even though 100 years after that um John Lewis and Martin Luther King and all of the amazing civil rights leaders trying to tried to write the wrongs from back then it was born out of this time period and let me just give you one fact that I did not know one of many I didn't know before working on this book so this election in 1872 because it was so corrupt nobody would concede for the Governor's race for the legislature even um it even impacted judges so two Governors were inaugurated wow by their own people two legislatures were sworn in by their own supporters and and so forth so this went on for months and the people who were trying to win out to actually be the real Governor um they had no problem with inciting violence particularly those who were aligned with the Democrats and that happened in a stunning way there were there was blood on the streets of New Orleans there were pitch battles there were insurrections there were coup attempts um there was all kinds of chicanery like Beyond like we we even we think that there's stuff that happens now I mean it's nothing compared to then there was a massacre which I mentioned the kfax massacre which happened in Grant Parish named for ulyses S Grant the president at the time of course the general before that where 150 black men were slaughtered in Cold Blood and it was it was horrible they were um just trying to make the point that their vote should count and they should had the right to vote and this is after the election in order to prosecute this case and to try to find Justice the federal government said we're going to do this through the federal court system because there were new constitutional amendments in place post Civil War that gave some protections so instead of just trying them for murder in in the South which they thought these are white guys in the South killing black men they're not going to there's not going to be a fair trial here we'll do it through the through the uh civil rights laws went all the way up to the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court decided the federal government doesn't have a role here in civil rights it should be up to the states they're going to determine the um how people should live and the South said fantastic and let us present to you the Jim Crow laws and that's how Jim Crow happened and lasted of course for for a century so it was that election and all the ramifications from that that was really laid the groundwork for the horrific um way that black citizens after they were already slaves were treated for so long in this country I mean reading about it you know made me feel better about our current political climate just because you look to history and realize how much more violent and horrific uh it was back then but are there are there parallels that you learned about while writing the book that make you think well you know uh this kind of thing can happen right uh and uh what we have is very fragile yes um going back to the to four years after what I was just talking about 1876 and the problems that I just described in the um in Louisiana happened in other states and it was so fraught and so corrupt and nobody in the state could make a decision okay like the canvasing board in Louisiana was the returning board these are our this is our slate of electors Congress please certify them they sent multiple slates to Congress and one of the debates was whether or not the vice president on the day that they certified the Electoral uh results had the ability to choose which slate of electors or whether it was just a ceremonial role and they decided that it was a ceremonial role that's just like Mike Pence decided yeah 150 years later they must have I wonder if Pence and his folks looked at this case I think they did it's funny because I have been meaning to call his people to ask I'm I mean how could they not have right um it was pretty much the only precedent but but then what happened was they threw out they just said we can't count these four states they don't they don't count so then there was a tie an electoral tie and then they had to figure out well now what do we do and so they came up with a commission because that's what we do in Washington and even then even then and it was you know supposedly bipartisan and then nonpartisan of course at the end it was one Republican who decided who was going to be the president one man and they decided it would be the Republican Rutherford B Hayes and he became the president but not for free the um tradeoff which was never obviously made official it was the quintessential back room deal was that the federal government would pull federal troops out of the South so not only did the at that point had the Supreme Court said it's up to you to set the laws the federal troops had been there on and off for years to try to preserve the peace they had to come out yeah that that part of the story I remember from history I didn't know the specifics of Louisiana but yeah no I mean and of course when they pulled the troops out that's when the the uh the reign of terror uh in the South began and it was it was Jim croww but it was also a lot of violence so um no I it's interesting the alternate slates of electors when you think about the potential issues with 24 you know they they passed reform in Congress and obviously Trump's not president this time so you know there's a lot of things he can't do but you do Wonder about a lot of these states uh especially with Republican legislators and legislatures and very trumpy legislator sending in uh their own slates of electors and then in a lot of the states there's Democratic Governors and so you could see the Dual slates getting sent in and yeah they changed the laws in a lot of these key States yeah like Georgia and they're not the same as they were no I know that's the uh oh boy well you know we've had a we've had a pretty busy summer so maybe the maybe the fall will be quiet may maybe all will just be normal again right just ensure that it won't be Dana Bash thank you so much for uh for coming on pod save America the book is America's deadliest election the cautionary tale of the most violent election in American history it is on sale now go check it out fascinating history and uh thanks again for coming on thank you for having me sorry my voice just crapped out it's done you know what you've been talking too much we all have bye Dana take care welcome to pod Safe America I'm John favro I'm Dan feifer on today's show the two let's get to the news candidates give dueling economic speeches on the issue voters say they care about most the economy then Liz Cheney says she's voting for kamla Harris while a bunch of other Republican politicians reportedly want Harris to win but are still too afraid to say that publicly after nine years multiple defeats an Insurrection and a felony conviction same as it ever was uh but first because we had the great Fortune to have Doug mhof in studio on Wednesday uh this is our first regular pod since Labor Day Dan feels like it's been 100 years it does it does so let me say welcome back from Summer the final campaign Sprint has begun and it's time to spend every moment between now in November in a Perpetual state of crippling anxiety who's with me what a compelling pitch you make just going to own get involved with politics just going to have your stomach hurt for some days yeah you know what though it's uh it's fulfilling and it will lead to a good outcome for all of us hopefully the harder we work and the more our stomach is in knots okay we are 60 days from election day which is both an eternity and no time at all uh for context 60 days ago we were talking about Joe Biden's interview with George Stephanopoulos where he said he would only step down of the Lord Almighty came down and told him to so score one for the Lord Almighty um [Applause] we don't know we don't know what he said know what happened we don't know what happened he was giving him different polling than donalan anyway so lots can happen uh the race is now basically a tossup uh polling averages give kamla around a three-point lead nationally but the swing state margins are terrifyingly close to the final results in 20120 uh with Pennsylvania essentially being tied a big reason uh Nate Silver's model now shows Trump with a better chance of winning Harris campaign manager J Ali Dylan also put out a memo on Sunday calling Harris and walls clear underdogs uh all right so before we dive into the news of the day what are your thoughts on the state of the race right now how you feeling a couple weeks ago sort of at the height of kamla enthusiasm you asked you went through all the positive polling you asked me if I was going to rain on everyone's parade and at the time I declined uh oh uh oh it's getting cloudy okay no no no but I wanted to say a couple things one sitting here where we are today I would much rather be us than them KLA Harris is a better candidate she has much more upside much more of a capacity to grow her vote than Trump does she's much less likely to light herself on fire every time she appears in public um and so you like she has energy she has momentum she has resources she has enthusiasm she has what you want having said that this race could not be closer in every single one of the as you pointed out in every single one of the Swing State polling averages are within one to two points and then when you look at the map and you start charting out a path to 270 it you basically have to win Pennsylvania and if you don't you have to win Georgia and North Carolina plus one other and that is doable oh did you say Georgia or North Carolina Georgia or North Carolina and one and one other right you can wi Georgia and North Carolina you can win Georgia North Carolina or Nevada or Arizona right but you have to win Pennsylvania or two other states and one of those States has to be Georgia or North Carolina so that is hard right it's a Georgia's a state we've won once since 96 North Carolina is a state that at the presidential level we have not won since 2008 in Pennsylvania we lost in 2016 and Biden won by 1 and a half% I think in 2020 well one and a half% yeah just to remind people how close things were uh he won Wisconsin by 6% uh Mich Mig by like 2.8% and Wisconsin by like or Pennsylvania by like 1 Point 1.6 I think about a point and a half yeah anyone Nevada and Georgia by 11,000 votes I think each so it's like not these could not be closer and that that is where this race is is incredibly incredibly close and I was on uh John Hyman's Puck podcast last week I saw this week I guess and he asked me what number would he was going through the polling averages and where har is and up by three and a half points and the 538 average he's like what number would she need to be at for you to sleep well night before the election uh there is no number okay there's no there's no number you know how we know that cuz Biden was at that number in 2020 there's no number what if the polling was correct well yeah how are we going to know that right but what if it was what if there's not a poll what if there is not a huge polling error like there was in 20 and to a lesser extent 16 like what's the what's the actual not the margin but what's her number that makes you feel good that she will overcome the Electoral College Advantage the Trump has I mean there is not a number where I would sleep well I mean honestly I haven't slept well in a decade so I don't think what is what is the sleeping well you speaka yes what what is a world in which you're not texting swing state polls at 4:45 in the morning like what world is that I'm UNF familiar 52 maybe no absolutely not higher than that 5 54 I mean 54 I'm sleeping pretty well 5 I'm sleeping pretty well at 53 to tell you the I mean in a world where the Lord Almighty who has recently left Joe Biden's residence and come to us to tell us the polling is correct maybe I've I would feel okay at that but in general I will not feel okay no matter what her number is and I should say you know uh I had Lyn vavrick who's a great political scientist from UCLA she's been on offline she's been on the Wilderness we've talked to her a bunch of times she she talks about how the electorate in the Trump era is calcified which is like polarization plus it's polarized it's evenly divided between partisans with the truly undecided and every time we say undecided everyone should know it's undecided about who you're going to vote for or whether you're going to vote but that group of Voters makes up a small but decisive group and that that's where we are and I think part of it is Donald Trump uh he's been on the ballot uh since 2016 um part of it is just a lot of the issues that are uh elections are decided on now are identity inflicted issues um where there's not a lot of room for compromise and the the parties there's just not a lot of overlap with the parties now they are very well sorted between Liberal Liberal leaning moderate to Liberal voters in the Democratic party and the rest in the Republican party it not didn't used to be like that uh throughout history but it is now and it is why all of these elections are incredibly close honestly the outlier was Joe Biden post the first debate right like that was the that was sort of like the biggest Gap that we've seen in many years in the election but now with a a good strong candidate like kamla Harris we are back to where Joe Biden was in 2020 and where elections have been generally in competitive swing states in the Trump years but even in Biden post debate yes Trump picked up a point or two in his Topline number but the Gap the Delta between Biden and Trump went up not because Trump went up but because Biden went down yeah and so and that like just as an example of how quotequote cified things are Trump was nearly assassinated he was shot in the ear on near National Television and then had a viral photo that everyone love that was shared gazillion times on social media and his Topline number did not move no did it move when he was convicted of a felony remember that yeah every these major things are moving the polls one to two points as likely to be statistical noise as it is to be actual movement but I think one thing you said is important for everyone to keep in mind which is that she has more room to grow than Trump does um of course that means CH probably has more room to fall but um people have mostly made up their minds about Trump uh they don't like him but the ones who are still considering him think maybe he's better on the economy to a lesser extent immigration just because they care about that a little less in the economy um those same people do not know enough about KLA Harris to make a choice and so they want more information about who she is what she values what she'd do how she'd be different than him going forward over the next four years and you know she has the money to tell that story she has the organization to tell that story but um she may not get a bigger megaphone she won't get a bigger megaphone uh or more attention than this debate on Tuesday you know they could have a second one and maybe that gets the same ratings but this is uh I think this is a a big big big deal as oh you think the debate you think the debate's a big deal as as big a deal as it could be as big a deal as it could be uh more so well more so than a typical presidential debate I think yes I think that when you have only one when in a changed media environment where it's very hard for the candidates to communicate with persuadable voters through the normal course of the campaign big huge Monumental moments where people actually tune in are of outsize importance and they have been in previous elections and I do think this is my own guess but like if she does really well in the debate I would not be surprised if she opens up a little bit of a lead which in this environment seems like a big lead like she's at three points nationally you could see her going to four uh four and a half after a pretty good debate I just think that there's a group of Voters who like they've they've pretty much made up their mind about Trump but they're just not sold on her yet and if they see her on stage next to him they can compare the two candidates she has a strong performance tells people who she is what she values what she wants to do and Trump is Trump you know that could be that could be good otherwise I just think it's going to be a dog fight in close like this right up until November which it probably will be but even a four and a half point lead nationally is a one point increase on where we are today where we're already very nervous about the Battleground stap PS which is big one point is big we went through how close all of these races were and Biden won the popular vote by four last time I I know so you know what everyone should do if you're a little nervous about this you go to votesaveamerica.com 2024 and you sign up to volunteer to help Democrats in races all across the country not just in the presidential level uh Ben wickler chair of Wisconsin Democratic party best Democratic chair in the in the country he always says the race is within the margin of effort the margin of er margin of effort which means that in a very very close race where it could be decided by a few thousand votes basically a few votes per Precinct every single volunteer matters everything you do matters every donation matters every door knock text all of it matters so uh if you haven't signed up yet go sign up let me K let me just make one point on this which is as dark and dreary as all of that calcification and polarization and scary poll number of sounds there is one important thing to remember is that there is an anti-a majority in this country and there's anti-a majority in all of the Battleground States we know because we've seen those voters turn out to defeat Donald Trump and to defeat Mega candidates in 20122 even North Carolina the state Democrats have not won in a long time that majority turned out for Roy Cooper twice in 2016 and 2020 when Trump was on the ballot and so it is right there for our taking if we turn out the voters who we know will support us if we persuade them to choose KLA Harrison Tim Walls and to choose Comm Harrison Tim Walls over the couch we will win this election like it is that simple and that's why why the margin of effort stuff are po to America matters so much because we control what happens here ultimately yes yes we do all right so for most people who are still undecided about who they're voting for whether they're voting at all the number one issue Remains the economy and cost of living um both candidates delivered speeches on the topic this week where they laid out New Economic plans K Harris went to Northampton New Hampshire on Wednesday to make an announcement about drastically increasing the tax deduction for small business and startups from $5,000 to $50,000 uh let's listen I believe America's small businesses are an essential Foundation to our entire economy and I've met so many entrepreneurs across the country who take the incredible leap of faith that is required to start a small business folks who put their life savings on the line and work through the weekends and holidays cuz they aren't just building a business they're pursuing a dream and by extension they're building a stronger middle class and a stronger America for us all Harris also said this week that she'll seek a smaller increase in the capital gains tax than Joe Biden wants uh she'd go up to 28% not as far as the nearly 44% maximum that the White House put in their budget proposal um on Thursday Trump spoke at the economic Club of New York where he promised to increase oil and gas production which is already at record level s hand out about10 trillion in tax cuts mostly to the rich uh do more to support crypto um uh slap some tariffs on everything uh that's imported uh which is really fun it's a couple of thousand extra dollars per family uh and he took he wanted he wants to take a suggestion from his favorite redpilled billionaire let's listen at the suggestion of Elon Musk I will create a government efficiency commission task with conducting a complete financial and performance audit of the entire federal government and making recommendations for drastic reforms we need to do it and Elon because he's not very busy has agreed to head that task force I took care of our economy like I would take care of my own company my plan is to make the Trump tax cuts permanent they are massive tax cuts bigest ever permanent and to cut taxes even more you can be the head of the biggest bank in the world and a couple of nukes and your bank doesn't mean a thing it's nice to hear them both side by side like that um I do enjoy that we're putting Elon Musk in charge of the federal government audit um because he has done such a great job with his takeover of Twitter which cost investors $24 billion in counting forced advertisers to flee and uh cost a few thousand people their jobs but the product the product is just the not just the the experience experience the experience of being on that platform pure joy top notch top notch can't can't put a price on that um all right we'll go back to Trump let's start with kamla what do you make of the political strategy behind her economic proposals uh do you sense a theme or a story they're trying to tell yeah this I think this story is very clear they want to make her someone who fights for the middle class and small businesses and Donald Trump is someone who fights for the rich and large corporations and that's the exact contrast they want that is the why she has this slew of small business tax credits and Trump obviously helps with that by going out and touting his massive permanent tax cut for corporations most of that money did not get put back to the American economy it was given as bonuses to Executives and dividends to shareholders and stock BuyBacks and so that yeah that's that's a very clear contrast it's consistent with what she's doing in our ads it's all about fighting for people like you the measure that we've talked about before is the most important measure probably in any campaign uh on who's going to win or lose is who's winning that contest yeah it's a little bit more um you know fighting for the middle class than it is like populist Warrior you know I just noticed the emphasis on especially with the speech this week emphasis on small business owners on Founders um and then her first real policy break from from Biden going with a lower capital gains tax increase what did you make of that I've struggled to try to figure that out and I'm because there's not a lot of political logic to it it's not I mean one capital gains tax cut tax rates is not something that's mattering to every single voter is not like a top- of- mind voting issue for people and having a lower rate it would generally you would assume to be less good politics broadly um so I'm going to go out on a complete Limb and suggest that it is very possible and maybe even likely that she simply disagreed with this policy proposal of the Biden administrations and then there is uh a true debate among the econ nerd Community many of whom are our friends about this proposal right there is a sense and I don't feel qualified to weigh in one way or the other but an argument put forward by some of our former colleagues in OB Administration some of whom are on both sides of this is that this is an ineffective tax because when you put the tax rate that High people just sit on the capital right they sit on the on their Investments as opposed to selling them putting that you know then reinvesting that money and it sort of locks up capital and that's why they doesn't make so neither raises Revenue nor um helps the economy and so you should do something else the people who have been pushing for this are um Silicon Valley types um which that sometimes can be uh a black mark at times but it is like I think what you hit on something that I think is tangentially related to the specific question I just don't think they went out there like you know we're going to distance ourselves from Biden on a capital on a 14o capital gains increase it's just just doesn't seem I mean that that you bring up a good point which is like you should know this about campaigns which is when you're dealing with a lot of the policy people especially the economic policy people oftentimes they're not thinking about politics at all they're literally just like when I crunch my numbers this would be better for the economy you know and some people you mentioned the San Francisco angle here say oh you know too many donors talk to her whatever I this is not something that you do for donors she has more money than any candidate at this point and like and a lot of it wasn't even raised by her doing fundraisers and the other thing is if you look at her tax proposals and and what she supports still from the Biden administrations tax proposals like she's hitting the super rich with a lot of tax increases still uh espe she still with the billionaire tax that uh that Biden had proposed uh a lot of the income taxes a lot of the corporate taxes so that's all there which leads you to believe that yeah maybe it's just an actual economic policy that she wants to focus on small businesses and startups um you would want more investment in the economy I think the question of like where does she distance herself from Biden's economic policies is kind of the wrong one because Biden's economic policies are actually quite popular the bills themselves are popular and the components of those bills are quite popular what people are upset about are the results right rightly or wrongly they they are dissatisfied with the state of the economy either for themselves in their personal lives because of the high prices or some sort of sense of where the national economy is going and so you don't it's not like there's Biden did something specific that made people unhappy he didn't pass an unpopular Bill he didn't pass a bill that didn't work you know people did not get hit with some sort of tax increase it's largely environmental factors out largely outside of its control around inflation and prices so what she has to have and I think is what she has done is a different approach right the to the challenge to the extent that Biden had a challenge in the economy that was of his own making it's that his economic message was backward looking yeah and hers has been fully forward-looking right she is not out you have not heard her defend the chips act like one time in this campaign like she's proud of those things and she will talk about them but what she's doing she's articulating a vision for the future which is sort of what people want and that's the difference and that's why in the numbers like you look at that Wall Street Journal poll she is losing to Trump by eight points on the economy and Five Points by on inflation in December of last year Biden was losing to by to Trump by 20 on both those measures and so just her the fact that she is not Biden and there because Biden's age also affected these things I was say the biggest the biggest way the biggest distance between her and Biden is the distance between their age yeah and I mean that is that affected everything because if you do not there were a significant number of people who did not believe that Joe Biden should run for president again and if you don't believe he should run for president again you're not going to suggest that trust him on the economy your most important issue change the equation there you're going to have better number there's more work to do do but it's it's not a question doesn't have to go find some Biden policy and like shoot it like Joe Mansion did the the the Obama climate act right it's not like that well and also Biden's approval ratings have gone up quite a bit uh since he decided not to run which tells you that people's problem with Joe Biden was not necessarily uh his policies or his presidency but the fact that he wanted to run for president again um that's right so what the hell was Donald Trump trying to do in his economic speech uh and how how you feeling overall about the contrast between the two candidates on this issue cuz obviously he leads I think what he was trying and largely failing to do was seem serious and normal at the speech that's why you go to the New York economic club right it's you're there it's this August setting you don't think the nuclear weapon comment if you're if you're a banker what is the you got a nuke what does it matter you know think that did it I mean it's he's not wrong no he's it's it's yeah it's a he's not going to get Daniel DED on that one who knows that's POS anything's possible um Daniel Dale Daniel D is a great verb um the I honestly I think it was basically seem serious and normal and to make make the economy more of an issue in this campaign I don't know that he accomplished any of those goals it wasn't it wasn't as bad as his normal set of remarks that like maybe it's a Redo for that North Carolina speech from a couple weeks ago when he made fun of the idea he was supposed to be talking about the economy and end up talking about the election and Joe Biden and Bun of other stuff but he didn't drive a consistent message he didn't have anything really interesting to say it was not in the clip we played but when in talking about the commission Trump said it would save us trillions of dollars a commission that is going to save trillions of dollars is a commission that by definition has to SL Social Security and Medicare yeah because the government spent $6 trillion doll overall last year that's the whole thing so if you're going to save trillions off of that that's that's not just cutting a few regulations and programs here and there and so in that sense I think he gave them a bit of the Harris g a bit of an opportunity to push to hit him on that his problem is the opposite of Biden's which is people have good feelings about the outcome of whatever he did on the economy when he was president but his individual policies are very unpopular the tax cut very unpopular the tariffs to the extent people know what tariffs are when they learn about them unpopular um even his like you know people do want to cut government waste they do want to take care of the deficit they those pop in every poll Donald Trump has nothing good to say about that because he added a ton to the deficit when he was president and is now proposing 10 trillion dollar of tax cuts um which are not paid for uh by whatever Cuts right and so like the more the more he gets into a debate with her about actual Economic Policy I think the worse it is for him yeah I mean theoretically yes if he if he stays in like you you know the gazy uh you know I did I managed the economy well and everything was great and now everyone everything's expensive he doesn't go beyond that like that's his strongest argument right if he has to go if he has to dig into that anymore and talk policy and talk about what he's going to do for the next four years it's it's not as helpful to him well that's true on every issue for him like once you once you get beyond that top Gauzy level you have to actually say things not for two reasons one his actual specific policies are quite unpopular and two he has no capacity to understand or speak about them coherently I mean when he asked a question about childcare in there his answer was oh my God I we didn't play that clip just because it was so rambling it was it was completely diff it was almost impossible to understand but he was basically there was a Q&A afterwards and someone asked him about child care and he just rambled on and on about how like the tariffs are going to pay for the child care and he's going to keep the child care and child care is actually not that expensive and meanwhile JD Vance is like you know talking about why Child Care is you know uh Universal Child Care is like uh um I think like it's class war against normal people yeah and you should just have your uncle and your parents watch your kids for you as if they don't also have jobs in America just just crazy um all right so Harris did get a notable endorsement on Wednesday from friend of the Pod Liz Cheney I know that is technically true because she has been on this podcast and it was a great you conducted a great interview with her but that is just like a hard sentence to hear sometimes that's why I said it that's why I said it during an event at Duke she was a also Duke uh she was asked about just what I mean I'm not I'm not I'm not like a Duke guy but just what a random shot at just a school in one of our seven swing States during an evented Duke she was asked by a student what she planned to do in November uh the audio is bad quality or we' play it for you but here's the key quote I don't believe we have the luxury of writing in candidates names particularly in swing States and as a conservative as someone who believes in and cares about the Constitution I have thought deeply about this and because of the danger that Donald Trump poses not only am I not voting for Donald Trump but I will be voting for kamla Harris um so that was Liz Cheney on the other hand Jonathan Martin had a column in Politico this week saying that there are establishment Republicans out there who want Trump to lose and lose definitively not just because they think he's dangerous because they want the party to realize that it has to move past trumpism uh of course unlike your Liz chenies or your Adam kininger these Republicans are just too afraid to say it all publicly they just got to tell Jmart quietly on background or off the Record and that's all they're going to do sorry nothing else they can do unfortunately they're hoping that he loses but they're just Spectators what do you what do you want them to do speak say something campaign uh vote so what do you make of the Cheney endorsement uh and also like how she did it well as a Communications professional I would not recommend rolling out your endorsement at a on a random week night at a random College event with no cameras where we only know about it because someone in this audience recorded on cell phone yeah I'm very confused by that and like I get I mean you know it like you said swing state North Carolina so that's nice but um just sort of I don't know did she just get the question decide I'm just going to do it now yeah it's it sort of seems that way I think she was specifically motivated by Pennsylvania senator Pat Tumi saying I think this past week that he was not going to vote for Trump but he could not vote for Harris or he was going to write someone else in the Pennsylvania ballot and that has been that is a uh a bur in the saddle of a lot of people in the never Trump Movement we hear our friends of the buber talk about this all the time the sort of the cowardice of this where you think Trump is totally unfit should not be president but then I'm going to do nothing to actually help that person and the cowardice of that moment is truly magnified if you're in a swings if you're in California you're just like I can't bring myself to vote for k Harris and I'm GNA write in I don't know Jeff Flake or what the ghost of Ronald Reagan whatever that I mean that is lame that is very lame and said a bad example but it's not as consequential but if you're a voter in Pennsylvania Like Pat Tumi is that is embarrassing I think she was implicitly calling that out yeah that makes sense do you think like do you think it would be useful if you're on the Harris campaign do you want Liz Cheney to do events do you want her to ever appear with kamla Harris do you ever want to put her in an ad maybe I mean you could imagine targeting voters in you know sort of center right leaning Independence uh in some suburb and you know around Atlanta and North Carolina and targeting ads to them that have Liz Cheney in it but I don't know what do you think yeah I think so I absolutely you would love they were they were reportedly courting her endorsement for a while now and trying to get her to come out and do this um so they clearly want it how you use it like Liz Cheney is someone in the world of politics like the last name is very familiar to people world of political junkies that means a lot we all know the story of what happened we know the courageous role she played on January 6th we understand how conservative she is on so many issues yet opposes Trump the average voter particularly the ones we target not so much but there are a group of people like the some of these Biden Trump voters who have been straying from our Coalition this is that you can see a video and it's probably a higher quality one than the one we have of this event that maybe it never it could be a targeted digital ad or it could be a video that people could share with the B Trump voters in their lives right just as like pie of video you're texting or putting in your group chain of just her to camera um you know a lot like the voters that Sarah longwell's group does with just so these raw cell phone videos to people talking you could see that with her like a less likly produced version of her just kind of saying who she is and why she's going to cross the rubrica and vote for KLA Harris you know because some of these voters you know they are leaving Trump so he's losing a point but for us to win we need them to come over here and come to K Harris so that we are netting two points out of this um and she I think she could be helpful with some number of Voters that way yeah especi I'm thinking Georgia I'm thinking Arizona where John McCain's son uh came out this week too and said that was cool too yeah that he's drift been drifting away from the Republican party and now he's going to be voting for KLA Harris so that's you know probably big in Arizona um J Mar's column two questions uh what do you think of all these Republicans who were secretly hoping that Trump will lose do you buy that and then do you buy that if he does lose decisively the party will be able to move on from trumpism like Jonathan Martin is a excellent reporter and we know from his writing over many years but also the book he wrote a couple years ago he has a great ability to get Republicans to say things to him they would not say to others so I believe they have said this to him yeah me too and and I don't think he would write it unless he had sufficient numbers of sufficient stature to say it now imagine being one of these people who you want something to happen you believe it's for the good not just of the country but of the party and for your career and then waking up every single day and doing the opposite of that because it's not just that they are being silent it's not just that they are you know writing in someone else they're actively campaigning and endorsing Trump yeah they are appearing with him when he comes to their states they are going to events with their constituents and telling them to vote for Trump like like Brian Kemp right Republican governor of Georgia who Trump's like you know attacking him attacking his wife blah blah blah and he's just like hey let's focus on beating kamla Harris don't be attacking my wife what the Brian Kemp thing and then and Jonathan's column is that suu is that every Republican is Ted Cruz we all thought he was some special example of Shameless obsequiousness but no they're all like that he's just a more embarrassing version of that but that is like how they all are and again if you're if you're a republican who's just publicly like no I want him to win because you know I have my reservations about his personality and you know tendency to try to overturn elections and start insurrections but uh I really like the policy and that's what's important to me like fine right but these people are like he's got to lose I want him to lose I want him to lose but can't say anything I guess they're just like afraid of they're afraid of like the right-wing media and and and what and Trump and what they can do to like whip up voters and some of these people face threat I mean who knows but like I I think it is legitimately scary to if you want to keep your job you will lose your job as a elected member of Congress Liz Cheney who we just mentioned the daughter of Dick chany true Republican royalty from Wyoming gets hammered in a primary because she came out against Trump you know we go Jeff Flake we can go mitt ROM Mitt Romney Republican like he did not he was run out of the party essentially um and it's not just that these people run or run out of the party and don't have jobs again but I'm sure you talk to Liz Cheney Mitt Romney whoever like they've had actual threats yeah the V on the violence security right just as as Democrats have too who've been targets to Trump like it's can get pretty scary now to the question of whether this Trump losing would rid the party of trumpism that is one of the most naive dumbest things I've ever heard it's just a big no you know I wrote today in message box um about how jenzy men are becoming much more prot Trump that this is a group Biden won Obama won men under 30 by 30 points uh almost 30 points in 2008 uh Trump in swing States cor New York Times polling is winning them by double digits and if and these are not these are not just like small government lower taxes Jack Kemp Mitch McConnell Republicans these are magga Republicans and if that's the and this is the largest generation in American history and if they like magism will exist Beyond Trump that I thought look defeating Trump would go a long way to taking one of the most dangerous people in American political history off the board like absolutely if we defeat him the selection but there is a long work to do here to beat the the dangerous trans the Republican party and it's because the exact Republicans that Jonathan Martin talked to have been fostering this and enabling this strain of politics with their silence over the last 10 years yeah and their problem is their voters it's it's it's more their voters than it is Donald Trump um because that's this is what they want this is the kind of politics they want um the the problem for them is going to be that the candidates that they have nominated uh who aren't Trump but who are still trumpy um have tended to do pretty poorly and Statewide races uh the Senate candidates the gubernatorial candidates like there's exceptions here and there but most of them who've tried to be trumpy have have lost by quite a bit it presents a short-term electoral problem if you have a you know people either super cooky candidates who are truly Maga or like uh her walker for instance or Blake Masters or Carri lake or you have more traditional Republicans doing magga karaoke like Ronda santis those candidates tend not to do well but you're still going to end up because of jerrym you're going to end up with a congress full of magga candidates which means that every Government funding deadline if they have control of you know they we don't want to talk about the Senate map looks like for the next coming Cycles if they have power dangerous things can happen yep all right two election related asks for you one please share this podcast with people in your life who are looking for a little more information about politics in the 2024 election if you can take 20 seconds to share share your favorite episode with five of your friends it'll make a big difference two a second reminder if you haven't please sign up for vot Save America's organizer else program so far more than 57,000 of you have joined that's amazing uh but we need your help to hit 75,000 signups by national voter registration day on September 17th uh even if you've never volunteered before vote save America makes it easy with weekly welcome calls and regular office hours so you can phone bank and canvas with confidence head to vot save america.com /24 now and make sure to subscribe to pod Safe America on Amazon music now so you never miss an episode this message has been paid for by vot sa America you can learn more at votesaveamerica.com and this ad has not been authorized by any candidate or candidates committee that's our show for today we'll be back in your feed on Sunday morning with pod Safe America live in Phoenix our guest host is Jane costen we also got Ruben gyo who's running for Senate uh but we have some extra content for you right now Tommy and love it sat down with uh one of our producers Carol R to talk about some Untold campaign stories on the newest episode of our subscription show inside 2024 uh here's a 10-minute preview of their conversation to hear the full episode plus polar coaster terminally online and all of our other subscription content subscribe at cricket.com friends or on Apple podcasts here's Tommy love Inside 2024 Preview it and Caroline welcome back to inside 2024 I'm Tommy vtor I'm John love it who are you oh I'm I'm Caroline Ron do we not do that here no we don't do that on this show but thank you for thinking of me as an equal for a hot second you are okay this is a great question from the Discord if the campaign is in a small town with no hotels rated two stars and above where does the candidate stay do they fly out on their private plane and go home what kind of lodging arrangements are available to the entire Entourage good question yeah I mean candidates do stay in dumps total dumps was Obama saying in dumps I mean our like go-to was a shitty hotel by the airport or he could rip sigs in an adjacent room so yeah I there was a period of time when it was a normal thing for candidates to stay with supporters like you'd go to some random little town and John Edwards would just like shack up with somebody in their their shack up you know well may poor word choice we'll never you know some de Neer like just crashing their you know kids for like Jerry Brown who was the governor of California is old school and he would stay in like supporter housing when he traveled just to save money it's really really one thing that has changed like just in the last like we're so old like it it used to be that like hotels were more like there was more varying quality but now there's just these chains that have like made the same experience at virtually every city yeah they have a baseline yeah so it's like never too horrendous anymore like you're in a kton and you know what it's going to be yeah we're Hampton in I think we did Hampton in a lot Obama did Hampton in Hampton Great Value I believe in the Hampton model are you being sponsored by them no but they could sponsor me I I think it's a great price point it's not luxury but that's okay when's the last time you stayed at Hampton in when we were in Boston for okay okay a tour show I believe wow you stayed at a Hampton in um I was on Survivor like I'm okay with some some roughing it yeah you know I like nice things but I don't need oh were there were they filming in the Hampton in were their cameras there some pay down the road I enjoy luxury but I can sleep Anywhere But to answer this person's question I mean odds are you just drive to like the kind of larger City nearby okay I I guess it's a pretty good work on um okay does knocking on doors and phone baking still work is there data showing that it's the best use of volunteer time versus user generated content for social media for example there is a lot of data that shows that it works it is effective I would argue it's getting more effective because as it gets harder to reach the most important and needed voters lower engagement less likely to vote undecided voters these are people that are less likely to be consuming news less likely to be consuming television less likely to see ads knocking on doors and phone Bing become more important it's very much worth doing it's a it's a game of inches and you can knock on a 100 doors and you'll talk to two or three or four people two of whom don't want to talk to you two of whom maybe do but in that 100 you'll get one and you know dozens of other volunteers are hitting blocks around you and together you're drawing out the people that will make the difference I will say though you go knock on doors of like Democratic precincts where you're really just trying to remind people to vote if they might not have put their ballot in yet just to make sure you get every single vote that's different but if you're in kind of a more moderate or like if you're knocking on like the independent doors or the the doors where you don't know what you're going to get I have noticed that the people are just a little bit more reluctant to answer the door a little bit more suspicious of each other since the pandemic there is a little bit of a I think darkness that has come in but even still you have really good experience as knock down doors yeah what he said I never open my door When someone knocks when I'm at home so I always just assume it's a Jehovah's Witness well and you watch a lot of horror films yeah yeah yeah if they have a mask on don't oh that's what I do open it with like a hockey mask Like a Knife I'm like welcome in I'm ready to be a star of a podcast uh it's a good followup how do you get out of your head and just talk to voters I feel like I'm afraid of saying something wrong or not knowing something and then I get Frozen there's no wrong answer the way you get out of your head is you do it you do it and you do it it's weird at first and then it's fine but like there's a very funny story from 2007 where uh I think it was Samantha power Austin gouby and cast sunstein were canvasing together so these are people who one's a polter prize winning scholar of genocide and foreign policy one is an economist and one is like the smartest legal mind alive uh and they're like okay we are like The A Team we're going to canvas in every question we could ever get on the doors like we got it covered and they knock on the door and the first question they get is when is the caucus or where is my caucus location and they didn't know and they failed on their first question so you will be fine it's going to go okay just do it yeah I think that's right also you just don't have to pretend to know everything you can say I'm not sure about that but here's why I really like KL Harris or here's why I really like yeah those are good Diego whoever it might be ask questions listen to them get their data like just make sure you write down what these people care about and get it to the campaign what is the madest you ever got at someone on a campaign over something dumb I think I love it sandwich got here in a couple minutes and yeah I'm getting pretty mad now no hey you have 20 more minutes before it gets here um on a campaign you know I I feel like you've y the reporters I well yeah I mean it was good no I just say that like I don't even remember some of them now because they were so stupid and small in part because we were exhausted frazzled stressed out mid 20s people yeah I mean I my job was to fight with reporters um and so we were young and there was a lot of bravado and and we did it in ways that were probably counterproductive Ben lebolt who's now the White House communications director you used to have a a fan set up blasting directly onto his body because he would sweat through his shirts so he would have just a fan propped that himself but the time the time I really remember losing it was when uh Fox News first reported like the madrasa stuff that Obama was attended to madrasa when he was younger and I think like I felt my like I disassociated as I screamed at this producer on the phone and that fix fixed everything yeah oh yeah Fox News came correct after that and did they did they believe you that he hadn't gone to madasa I'm sure no no still don't um on that this is another question I can't remember what it was but I I know that line so well I can just say it wow um when you're on a presidential campaign what's your relationship like with the saffers of the opposing campaign is there a relationship is there any kind of like you know like Kirsten dunce Gabrielle Union and bring it on like respect you but I hate you and I'm going to beat you um I mean the the primary campaign ones are are the weird ones cuz those are your actual friends you know it's like your roommate got a job on one place and you did on another so you know those people um I actually got to know the McCain people really well uh because I went to the RNC and we ended up going out to dinner a couple reporters took a bunch of like the Democratic flax and Republican flax we all went to dinner we had a good time and we became friends and we actually stay in touch but um I do remember one time when um we had a there was a particularly costic and I'm not going to name names again strident Obama surrogate on the air I against a very strident uh McCain surrogate and I got a call through the switchboard and this person was like it's Tucker bounds for Tommy vtor I'm like Tucker bounds he's the McCain like National spokesman and he called me he's like vtor we'll promise never to put this person on air again if you promised to never put that person on air again it was this very funny moment like Dayton did it work no we both were booking those people all day but it was but it was hilarious it was a call for us funny that was really funny like a moment of like fake truth between you just us being like a moment of recognition that we both were sharing experience from completely different perspectives and in that moment we both could see how awful the thing we were producing was and we just wanted to acknowledge it is it expected that a losing the saffas of a losing primary campaign kind of try to get jobs on the winning primary campaign and is it humiliating or is it like this is normal I think it's normal it's normal yeah it's um I think like sometimes it's harder for spokespeople because spokes people both they're very public in drawing the contrast between the two candidates and the best spokespeople are ferociously loyal and you know it's you know you can sell a salesperson anything is an old saying and when your job is selling the candidate you're not just selling it to the world like you sell yourself and you really believe it and so I think that can sometimes be the hardest um bridge to build and also they're on the record like it's hard to get a job working for Barack Obama if you're on the record for like an entire month of March with your campaign's message of he's not from here and he can't be president it's loow right it's particularly hard for spokes people because like Barack Obama picks up the paper and sees like named official attacking him and you're like we're going to hire that guy no you're not absolutely not but I mean David Axel I mean people like yeah there's a lot of um sometimes uh you're also aware that some of the people working on the campaign you beat they're actually smarter than the ones uh working on the current campaign so thanks for listening to that preview to listen to the full episode and much more subscribe to friends ofth POD at cut.com or on Apple podcast talk to you this weekend bye everyone