Biden Is Out, Harris Is In with Jon Stewart, Doris Kearns Goodwin & Eugene Daniels | The Weekly Show

JON STEWART: Kamala is brat. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Doris is brat. JON STEWART: Doris is brat. And I didn't know what that was, and then Maggie just goes. [MUSIC PLAYING] Hey, everybody. Welcome once again to The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart. My name is Jon Stewart. So last we left off, Joe Biden was the nominee. There was nothing that anybody could do to-- to not have Joe Biden be the, it was just too damn late. It's too damn late. It's too damn hard. The American people won't stand for it. The Democratic Party won't stand for it. Donald Trump is now the inevitable next president. They are unified, deified, and on their way. And now, there's a new candidate and she is deified and on her way. And it's a land, and Donald Trump can't believe that he chose JD Vance, who's a lunkhead. And now, it's been a fucking week! And the whole thing is twisted on its head, and none of it is really what's happening. And we still have another 3 and 1/2 months of this, gaa! I'm here with my erstwhile producers, Brittany Mehmedovic and Lauren Walker, and I apologize for the-- the sheer mind-blowedness of it. But the media takes their cues from the, the most prognosticating and speculating amongst us and locks it in as conventional wisdom. And you can just see, none of it is, is real. It's mind-boggling. We had such a hard time. I don't know if you guys do this. Why is it-- It's difficult for us to book pundits or journalists that are on television. Their organizations will not let them come on our podcast. Let that sink in for just a, a moment. Organizations that rely on access and transparency refuse to allow their reporters to come on podcasts to talk about the issues of the day. Why? What do they say to you, Brittany, when you ask them? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Honestly, I haven't been able to get clear answers, which is part of the-- JON STEWART: Right. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: --I think, frustration. JON STEWART: We're not naming names, but we may at some point. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Down the line. But it's unlike anything I've really ever seen kind of in-- in the decade that I've been doing this. Honestly, it just-- And even the simple question, like phone calls go unanswered. It's a very just like, we're going to politely decline on this. JON STEWART: This large organization, NBC, left you on red. Didn't they leave, after saying, no, we can't have our reporter talk to you. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. JON STEWART: And then they stopped answering as to why. And the reporters say, I'd love to do it. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. In this case, reporters are like, would love to join, just need to get network approval. JON STEWART: Network approval. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: And then network approval comes back and says, we're going to decline on this. JON STEWART: Yeah. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: And I say, oh, why? JON STEWART: Right. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Is there a scheduling issue? JON STEWART: Right. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Is there, you know, what is the reason? We're politely declining. So you call and just say-- JON STEWART: Wow! BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: --can I understand it? Like, any, any information. We're reasonable, nice people. JON STEWART: Well-- BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: --most of the time. JON STEWART: You, you are. [LAUGHS] I don't know if I get to fall into that, that category, but, but you certainly do. But just let that sink in. I just want people at home to let that sink in for a second. News organizations stonewall inquiries as to why their reporters are not allowed, are being restricted from just being able to come on a stupid fucking podcast and give their opinion, even as just a promotional tool for either the reporter or for the organizations that they-- BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. JON STEWART: --work for. You know, I've once heard a wise man say, democracy dies in darkness. But how is it possible that a news organization would not feel shame and bewilderment at using the techniques of obfuscation that they rail against from politicians and public figures? Lauren, you worked, you were in journalism for a long time. Do you recall there being that type of, how in the world-- I understand that you, you know, you can't go write articles for other papers or you can't host a show on another network. But these types of promotional or cross-pollinating appearances should be standard fare. Nobody's saying, that person is now hired to be a part of our regular ongoing commentary. LAUREN WALKER: I'm reluctant to speculate, because you know, not very journalistic of me, but I do imagine that they feel some type of ownership of these journalists that they pay their paychecks. Maybe they don't want their ideas anywhere else, or maybe you appear partisan and they want to avoid. JON STEWART: This is NBC. I mean, they have MSNBC. They have-- Let me ask you a question. Do you think this is a universal rule or this is me? Like, it's hard not to take this personally. It's a once a week podcast. We had the same problem with CNN. They gave us a bunch of shit for trying to bring somebody on. Like, it's, it's bonkers. And it makes no sense. And I would think it's-- it's an embarrassment to those organizations, those news organizations. And the crazy thing to me is, the journalists themselves think it's insane. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah, they want to do it. JON STEWART: And it shows the fundamental disconnect between the people that are running these organizations and what those organizations are supposedly there for, which is informing the public on the issues of the day. Whether they're informing it on somebody's podcast or something else. Just absolute nonsense. But I wanted to point it out, because, and this is inside baseball, and who even knows how much of this survives the edit into, into the show, but like, I just wanted to give props to Lauren and Brittany, who have to constantly pivot. LAUREN WALKER: We are professional pivoters at this point. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: It makes it fun. JON STEWART: That's so not the case. But I am excited about today's program, because we do have access to two incredibly knowledgeable individuals, and we're going to be talking about all the changes that have been taking place within the presidential race. We're going to be talking about the media's inability to respond to it with any kind of chill. But it's all grand pronouncements. It's all just news. Biden is inevitable. Biden can't be inevitable. Biden can't win. Trump is inevitable. Kamala is inevitable. Trump is now regret. Like, holy shit, calm down. So I'm going to, let's-- let's jump in with that now and-- and see where we go. [MUSIC PLAYING] All right, here we are. We're going to talk to our guest, Doris Kearns Goodwin, presidential historian, Pulitzer Prize-winning author, whose most recent book is An Unfinished Love Story, A Personal History of the 1960s. And also, Eugene Daniels, POLITICO, White House correspondent and Playbook co-author. Doris, lovely to see you again. DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN: You, too. Yay! JON STEWART: And Eugene, very nice to meet you. We've not met, but I'm excited that you're on the program. Doris, I'm just going to, I'm going to start with you real quick. As a presidential historian, is this, this is catnip I would assume. You know, an unprecedented moment in presidential history. Are you, are you tasting the Pulitzer? Are you tasting what's coming your way when you write this book? What are your thoughts on the historic nature of what we're seeing right now? DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN: Well, you know, mostly, I live with dead presidents. And I think about them in the morning and I think about them when I go to bed at night, and I'm recounting history that went long before. And I'm asking them questions and they don't answer me. But this time, I'm living in a clearly historic time. And for a presidential historian, it just brings back echoes from the past constantly. I'm living in the 1860s or the 1920s or the, 1968. And so it's an extraordinary time. I mean, you're happy to be living in a difficult time. JON STEWART: What are you, when you're hearing the echoes, what's, what's resonating the most? Is it LBJ and him stepping out in 1968 and opening up? That was obviously, I guess, before the primaries or during the primaries. What are the echoes that are resonating the most? DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN: I think it's clearly that's the last time that a president withdrew from the race. He withdrew in March 31 of 1968. And as you say, he was already in the primaries. He wasn't doing well. He had been battered in New Hampshire. He was about to lose in Wisconsin. But much more importantly, what was happening to him, was that they, he'd been told that unless he sent 200,000 more troops to Vietnam, that it would only-- and it could only be a stalemate, if that was so. And he decided the time had come to wind the war down. So that was the major speech he was going to give. But he knew nobody would believe it if he were still a candidate. So he prepared that speech. It stunned the nation when he not only said that he was going to wind the war down, but that he was going to withdraw from the presidency, so he could spend all of his time on the presidential duties. I was watching that, was stunned. My husband was up in New Hampshire, Richard Goodwin, with Theodore White, the great journalist. And White had told him that five days before, he had seen LBJ, who looked terrible. He was under such pressure. And he felt like his face was sunken, his voice was so soft. And now he watched him on the screen. Before he even said he was going to withdraw, and he looked like a different person. Composed, relaxed. The tensions had been reduced. So that's what reminded me most, I think, of what's happening now. JON STEWART: Right. Now, to be fair, and I think this is for the historical record, LBJ never looked particularly great. Let's, let's be-- let's be clear. DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN: Oh, wait a minute. I'm going to argue with you, I'm going to argue with you. JON STEWART: LBJ was a caricaturist dream. The, the long, every, every one of his features would be accentuated and exaggerated, and, but, but it's fascinating. Now, Eugene, you're in, you're in the middle of this. So Doris kind of gives us this historical macro overview. EUGENE DANIELS: Yes. JON STEWART: You're the micro guy. You're in there every day. The breakneck speed at which this is all happening has got to be dizzying for anybody who is on the inside trying to cover all the developments. EUGENE DANIELS: Yeah. I'm hoping you can't see the bags under my eyes or the eyes of the rest of the correspondents or reporters that are trying to cover the story. JON STEWART: Yes. EUGENE DANIELS: You know, these are unprecedented times. I could use some more precedented times, myself. That would be great. But I think the thing that was really surprising outside of the debates, we're watching the debate, we go to POLITICO's offices. There's dozens of people there watching. That happens around the country and newsrooms. And immediately, people started to be a little bit confused about what was happening. And then when President Biden said, I beat Medicare, that is when our flone, phone started blowing up. So really, that sentence is really what set off this entire firestorm. JON STEWART: I, I beat Medicare. EUGENE DANIELS: Yeah. And then Trump said, yeah, you did, right? JON STEWART: So, reporters and White House correspondents, they're traveling with the president-- EUGENE DANIELS: Yeah. JON STEWART: --at all times. EUGENE DANIELS: Yeah. JON STEWART: I feel like we've been watching this in slow motion for two or three years. We understood, you know, there was a sense that Biden was, he and Trump are both, they're older men. There was sort of a sense that Biden was going to be a one-term president. He, himself said, I'm running to, to stop Trump, and, and that's going to be it. That debate couldn't have come as a shock to the people that have been with him day in and day out, no? EUGENE DANIELS: It did. It did. And this is, and this is why, right. So, we don't get to see President Biden at all the private moments that a lot of, like now you have members of Congress and governors kind of coming out and having these stories where either he didn't remember their name or he lost his train of thought or he said something a little weird. Some of this is stuff that Biden has always been doing, right. So we're not starting, you know, the bar is already kind of low here for what people are anticipating from him. He's not you this, people don't see him as like this orator. And if you think about it, the people around him, people who have been doing this for a really long time, if he was like that all the time, why would you debate? They decided that June 27 was the debate that they wanted. They decided that it should be before he had the nomination sewn up. They thought it would focus the American people on the race. It has, but I think not in the race, not in the way that, that they wanted to. JON STEWART: Were they deluding themselves to some extent? EUGENE DANIELS: I think part of it is like, when you have an older person in your life and as things start to change, you, it's like also when you're like gaining weight in your house, right. Like, as I gain weight, me and my husband don't see it, but I go home, I go home and see my grandmother and she's like, what, what are these 20 extra pounds? JON STEWART: They didn't realize Biden had a couple of, had some love handles, had a couple of Dunkin' Donuts. Things were things were getting out of control there. EUGENE DANIELS: That, that is like the feeling. And when you talk to people, that's what they say. And they knew he was old, but they were moving forward. And I think the most important aspect of this, is that you can put blinders on when your focus is, no one else can beat Donald Trump. That is-- JON STEWART: Maybe that was the delusion. EUGENE DANIELS: That's the thing, right. That's the commandment within Biden world, and always has been. Only one person has. And they felt like he was the best poised to do so. We don't know that that's actually true. We're going to test that. The Democrats are going to test that theory moving forward. But that was moving and motivating them to move forward in the way that they were, whether or not they saw at some point, we will, everyone will write books and long, deep articles about what people actually saw. JON STEWART: Doris will write books and long, deep articles. Doris, what, what has changed? I'm curious what has changed from the boys on the bus, from that idea of the access to the presidential candidates? In your mind, was the Biden campaign different traditionally from other campaigns in the way that they limited access? Or has access, do we have more reporters now, but less actual access? What's-- DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN: Oh, I do think that access seemed more limited. I mean, just think about FDR. He had two press conferences a week, every single week, two press conferences. And that meant that the reporters had access to him and they could ask him questions, he could answer them. And then, he was also having fireside chats. So that I think things have diminished over time. JON STEWART: But they also protected FDR to some extent. There was always that idea-- DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN: They did protect him. JON STEWART: They would never talk about his physical infirmity. DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN: No. In fact, it's incredible. When he went to give an acceptance speech in 1936, as he was going down the aisle, holding on to two strong people, his braces unlocked. He fell on the floor and they had to pick him up. He got up there and he gave a great speech, the rendezvous with destiny speech. They never mentioned that he had fallen or that his braces had unsnapped. So things were different then, and that's a problem. EUGENE DANIELS: Wow. JON STEWART: Wow. DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN: I just want to go back to one thing you said before, when you said that, how badly LBJ looked. I knew him in the last years of his life when his hair grew long. JON STEWART: Yes. DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN: And it was white and he looked like a cowboy. And that was a good-looking LBJ. But you know what's interesting? I'm just thinking also-- JON STEWART: Doris. DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN: --about when I look at his, no, don't argue with me. I saw him. JON STEWART: Doris, you got a thing for presidents. You know, I've heard you speak rapturously about LBJ. By the way, one of the few people in the country who believes Lincoln was a sexy beast. That's Doris Kearns Goodwin. DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN: I told that. EUGENE DANIELS: I'm with Doris on that. I'm with, I'm with Doris on that. JON STEWART: All right, fair enough. EUGENE DANIELS: Abe's up there. DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN: You know what happened, Eugene, was that I showed Jon a picture when I was on his show a long time ago of Lincoln as a rugged person before the beard. And he really did look sexy. I wish that beard had never come. But, you know, one of the things, one of the things you think about, is that the pressures on the president are such. Can you imagine what they were on with Biden once this debate had happened? You know, you want to have a second term. JON STEWART: Sure. DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN: You feel like that's even more important than the first term, because it's an endorsement of you. You go over and you say to yourself, what if I had just done it differently? It's what everybody who made a mistake during a debate must have said, whether it was Ford when he said something about Eastern Europe or Mike Dukakis, when he said something about capital punishment. You go the rest of your life. You know, I've talked to these candidates and they say, you say, when did you stop thinking about it? They said, what do you mean? You think we stopped thinking about that? So for Biden, I think in those first days, it must have been almost frozen to think about that. And then he had to consider, well, the press is coming after me, those editorials, the donors are coming after me. And then for a while, he could say, well, it's just the elites. But I think when the Congressmen told him that their constituents, the people, in other words, were 90 to 10 saying he had to stand down, then he finally had to make that decision. It's a really tough decision. JON STEWART: I think the difference between, Doris references in terms of Mike Dukakis, was a question that he had gotten about if his family was violated through crime and what he would do, he was against the death penalty and what he would do. And he gave sort of a twisted and interesting answer that some say really lost him some support in the election. But those are-- Having a bad debate where you misspeak is different than something that looks fundamentally unsettled. EUGENE DANIELS: Yeah. He was failing to put sentences together, right, and thoughts together. And, you know, they went into this thinking that you have Donald Trump, who in every debate just kind of like yells and says all these things that are miss-true, that are untrue, and that Biden would look really smart going into the details of all of these things. So they tried at one point, to say that he overprepared. But he wasn't saying sentences. He was struggling. It was very obvious. They said he had a cold. It will be a very long time. We may never know what the actual truth is of what was happening up there, because we've seen him since, and he's kind of back to old man Biden as opposed to what we saw on the debate stage. But I think something that's-- that continues to be fascinating to me, is that when they were saying that it was the elites that wanted Biden out, that was almost never true. The primary, the primary that wasn't, had in polling that voters wanted something else. Voters one, did not want a Trump v Biden race, and even Democrats didn't want President Biden. JON STEWART: Right. EUGENE DANIELS: And then the Democratic apparatus, as it is, kind of came together and decided, as they often do, no, we're going with the incumbent. It is rare that, that, especially nowadays, that they would do something differently. And then what really, I think, turned the tide for Biden, was kind of the way that he and his team strategized and worked this out. That first week, when it was kind of, they hunkered down and did the normal Biden world thing, which they ignore everything. They don't, they don't want to be distracted. And then they focused on, he had that North Carolina rally. Then he had the, the one interview with George Stephanopoulos. And they really thought that that was going to move things. It didn't. JON STEWART: But they must have known that that Stephanopoulos interview was unimpressive, at best. EUGENE DANIELS: I talked to quite a few people. They thought that they had, he had done, like maybe like a C minus, which is like enough to pass, not enough to get you, you-- JON STEWART: Right. EUGENE DANIELS: --might still graduate, but you have to keep going if you get, depending on how the grades shake out on the other tests, you might still get out of this high school. And I think that is what they ended up doing. And on Monday, when he sent this letter to Hill Democrats being super defiant, basically saying, get over it and get in line, that is when he started to hear a lot of members of Congress being like, oh, we're not doing that. His Morning Joe interview was, was in that same vein. So he went to being defiant. And at one point, he had to be humbled. And so it, and then he dropped out. And so these, the way that those decisions were made also really impacted how much Democrats were upset. And when he said in that George Stephanopoulos interview, it just matters if I just give my darndest. JON STEWART: If we end up a fascist regime, as long as I gave it my all, I think everybody will be happy. Doris, I want to ask you. So very clearly, the Democratic Party lined up behind Biden and made sure that the primary season was not a real one. It was kind of a Potemkin village and they put up one candidate, I think it was Dean. DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN: Phillip, Phillips. JON STEWART: Dean Phillips, who we've all decided is actually not a real person, but in fact, the picture on a hose sales ad. But Trump has utterly usurped the entire apparatus of the Republican Party. It really is in service to one man. He controls the platform. He writes it specifically. It takes out all the things that are traditionally. Doris, how Democratic are these parties? How much do they normally control what these apparatuses are? And how much of a say, you know, there's delegates, there's super delegates, there's all these things that make it not a true Democratic party. But at least with the Democrats, they are answering in many ways, to their base, to their voters, who are saying, this can't be. We can't have this guy. DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN: Right. I mean, I think in the old days, the political bosses in the Democratic Party or the Republican Party, had complete control at the convention. There weren't any primaries. You could just decide who it was you thought would be the best leader, and then they'd go forth in September. It would go from September to November. Sometimes I wish we could go back to that. You know, the primaries started in 1912 with Teddy Roosevelt wanting to beat Taft in his own party. JON STEWART: There were no primaries before 1912? DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN: No primaries before 1912. It was the people should rule, that was the argument. And Teddy Roosevelt wanted to beat his own friend and the current president, Taft. So he needed primaries, because he had the popularity and Taft had the party delegates on him. So anyway, that, that splits the Democratic Party, the Republican Party in two. JON STEWART: Wow. DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN: And that's the end of the primary. Nobody wants it anymore, until it finally comes back in the '50s and the '60s. And where it really becomes strong, is in 1968, when Humphrey wins, despite having not gone into the primaries, because he had the party delegates behind him and Lyndon Johnson. Then they decide, we need primaries, we need primaries. I mean, the thing we were saying about Biden, is that there were only 14 million people that voted for him. He kept touting the fact that, I was voted for by the people, 14 million votes. 51 million people watched that debate. And that's a huge distinction, because that debate, once seen, could not be unseen. JON STEWART: But also, those primaries were perfunctory. For, for Biden, they were perfunctory. But I want to talk about, Doris, this brings up an interesting point, because we view the way things are done now as though it's the way things have always been done. It's the status quo. It's conventional wisdom. This is the only way to do it. And Eugene, we'll get to you with this in a second, because I think it informed some of the coverage. What I saw in the coverage was, this is impossible. It's way too late to in any way ever switch a candidate. But the truth is, that is an utterly modern phenomenon. And none of this ever even takes place. Generally, I think none of it even begins to take place until the convention and moving forward. This permanent campaign that we are in is a modern phenomenon, is it not, Doris? DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN: Absolutely. No, in the old days, where we produced Abraham Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, Franklin Roosevelt, we didn't even start thinking about the convention until the convention came. Somebody would come out of the convention. Then they would wait until Labor Day, and then the campaign would start right after Labor Day. And we had two months to decide who it was going to be. And somehow, we may have done a better job then. But I think the interesting thing is, where the leaders came back, the Democratic leaders came back in the Biden situation was, even before the debate, 3 out of 4 people thought he was too old. They were not happy with either choice of Trump or Biden. But somehow they didn't pay attention to that. They thought you had to take the person who was there. He had done a good job as president, et cetera, et cetera. But then once that debate happened, those leaders are the ones that helped to make things change. Nancy Pelosi said the question is, was it an episode or a condition. They started making space for the fact that he might not be able to stay there. The pressure kept building up. They spoke up. So the leaders, the leaders of the Democratic Party really helped to make this happen. Because, as I say, they were hearing from the people. So finally, he had to make the decision, as hard as it was for him. JON STEWART: So in some ways, it was the base that, that decided this, not the elites. It was, finally, it seemed the elites listened to the base! DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN: Listened to the people. That's exactly right. JON STEWART: The base had been saying all along, I'm not comf-- And, and you see this. Now, Eugene, this brings up an interesting point to me about the coverage. And I want to talk about as this thing was swinging, the sort of hot takes that come out of this. And it was, I'm just going to give you some of the examples of-- of, of the whiplash that people were going through. So the articles were, Democrats who believe Biden should drop out are insane. They are walking into a death trap. How, they are, these are idiots that would say it's too late. It's too late for Biden to drop out. Biden is your only chance. You are idiots. Two days later, they are saying, excitement around Kamala Harris are the Democrats only chance. Thank God they finally pulled the plug on this death trap of a candidacy that was Joseph Biden. In the same way, a week before, it was Donald Trump is inevitable. The Republicans are coming out of this convention. JD Vance is a brilliant stroke. And now they're writing, Trump is in trouble. He hates JD Vance. JD Vance is the worst. What, do the reporters ever read their own articles? EUGENE DANIELS: We do. But this is, this is one of the things, Jon, is that like one of the many, is that there is so much going on right now. JON STEWART: Yes. EUGENE DANIELS: Like, we are on this podcast, and who the hell knows what we're going to come back to, what world we're going to come back to. JON STEWART: You think Harris is out. EUGENE DANIELS: You never-- JON STEWART: And now Shapiro is in, and we're moving on. EUGENE DANIELS: You never know. Like, the, the speed at which, even like the last like, I don't know, 40, since, since June 27, the speed at which this cycle has moved, has been so wild. And I think what we try to do, is give people kind of a sense of what's happening right now. I think often, not often, I think sometimes, that we-- we, as well as other folks, miss the mark, right. You have politicians who miss the mark. And I think being declarative about it had a lot to do with how Democrats were speaking about it, how behind closed doors they wanted him gone, but they, they didn't know how to do it. But also, whether or not they had the actual wherewithal like inside of them to do this, to get rid of this guy who everyone loves and thought, and really thought did a good job, but thought that he was going to make them lose and tear all of them down. More importantly, did they understand the rules of how an open convention or a contested convention would actually work? And I think that's where a lot of the like, they would be insane to do this, came from. Because Democrats were like, how would we pick? It would be, we can't do that. 14 million people voted for this man. Like, how, what does that look like? But I talked to Elaine Kamarck, who is an expert. She's literally written multiple books. She updates it every four years, about the conventions and primary system for Democrats. Also, the wife of Steny Hoyer, one of the members of Congress and a former leader in the House. And what she said is, it is just like everyone just misunderstands what is actually possible. That the power, it's really like when you, you vote for a representative to Congress, they make decisions on your behalf when they can't go back to all of you and find out what you want to say. And so they send these delegates. And the delegates have all the power. And so had President Biden stayed in-- JON STEWART: Right. EUGENE DANIELS: --the delegates who are people who aren't just saying they're going to vote for him. JON STEWART: No, they're-- they're, they're self-selected by the campaign so that they're loyal. EUGENE DANIELS: They're very loyal people. JON STEWART: Sure. EUGENE DANIELS: So, so it's like the operation of this, was, I think, misunderstood by not just reporters. And I count myself, you called it. You said idiots. I'm a count myself amongst the idiots ignoring-- JON STEWART: Not idiots, no. EUGENE DANIELS: --the lesson. JON STEWART: Eugene. EUGENE DANIELS: Learning the lesson. JON STEWART: Because you're not an idiot. EUGENE DANIELS: But like, it's a, it's a good lesson for all of us about like how quick the news cycles moves. JON STEWART: But Eugene, you know the lesson won't be learned. EUGENE DANIELS: I learned it, how about that? JON STEWART: No, but it's. I'm going to read you. Here's, here's the, I'm going to read you The Run. EUGENE DANIELS: Yeah. JON STEWART: Forcing Biden out would have only one beneficiary, Trump. EUGENE DANIELS: Right. JON STEWART: The Atlantic. EUGENE DANIELS: At one time, that made sense. JON STEWART: Trump is preparing, right. The Atlantic. Trump is preparing for a landslide win. New York Times. This is how you know Trump smells victory. July 15. Donald Trump, man of destiny, July 18, the Democrats aren't even trying. July 19, Republicans emerge from convention confident in Trump, talking about a blowout victory. July 22, pathetic Trump already trying to weasel out of debating Kamala Harris. Same day. Why Trump suddenly thinks picking JD Vance was a mistake. Same day, Kamala Harris' shocking fundraising numbers terrify Trump. EUGENE DANIELS: Yeah. JON STEWART: When are we going to learn from the media? Doris, you know, we keep talking about the difference in the old days and the new days. There's no question back then, the smoke-filled room was the elites choosing things, the reporters had a different relationship with the candidates. But what we have now is chaos without context or perspective. Hot takes, that in many ways, inflame the electorate rather than illuminate the electorate. How do we take a breath? What do we do in terms of, we can't change the speed at which events take place, but can we change the manner by which we either cheer that on or cover it? Doris, what's, what's your thought on that? DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN: You know, that's a really good question. I mean, the problem is, when breaking news happens, there's an emotion that goes with that breaking news, whether it was the assassination attempt or the Republican convention, or then the fact that Kamala Harris has done so well in the last couple days, that that emotion becomes part of what the press covers. And it means that you're changing 90 degrees, as you're saying, or 180 degrees from where you are before. Maybe you can just sort of have a longer view. I mean, the weird thing about the old days, was that the political bosses, yes, they may have been in smoke-filled rooms, but they were looking for a candidate who could bridge the divides in the party. So they weren't looking for an extreme on either side. The problem with the caucus system now and the primary system is often, a candidate comes from the extreme and then has to work their way back to the middle in order to win at the other end. But it is more Democratic. We can never go backwards sometime, and I don't think people would even go back to the smoke-filled rooms, although I like some of those old political bosses in the old days. They had an intuition about who could possibly be the right person for that time. So, when that first primary happened, The New York Times wrote an editorial saying it was so vicious, as I was saying, between Taft and Teddy, Taft called, called Teddy a dictator, and Teddy, Teddy called Taft a pinhead, that it was embarrassing. And if this is the-- JON STEWART: Pinhead? DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN: --first primary system, we hope we hope it's the last. We hope it's the last. And they said, we must have a blush on everybody's cheeks. I know, a pinhead is kind of a weird thing to call him. But that meant he didn't have a lot of brains in that pinhead, right? JON STEWART: I just find it interesting that these, these lions of American democracy and statesmanship, and we have no idea the day to day of how they were actually dealing with each other, and the pinheads. But Eugene, I want to ask you. Look, reporters are human beings. EUGENE DANIELS: Yeah. JON STEWART: And they're invested in this, as well. But I want to ask you, do you think now that the ubiquity of the coverage incentivizes reporters to the hot take? You're human beings. You're going to see what gets the clicks. And maybe that shapes the extremity of what goes on there. But it's something that struck me during Donald Trump's trial, is that in court, they just litigate the parameters of reality, the parameters of what happened. There are evidentiary standards and there are things that each side has to follow. Do you think that our journalists could maybe take some lesson from that idea of litigating the parameters of our reality, rather than the speculation towards what this all means? Because as we see, that is what's so temporal and ephemeral and doesn't really stand the test of time. But litigating what's going to happen next or how it's supposed to happen, seems like a worthy endeavor. EUGENE DANIELS: Yeah, I think you're right. I think the problem is, that people who engage in the media are asking for context. What does this mean? What does, how does this compare to the past? What could happen? And I think there's a fine line between analysis and kind of prognosticating and guessing. You can say former President Donald Trump got shot. Republicans feel x, y and z. Democrats have paused on fighting with Biden because of it. Republicans feel like this is going to give them a straight shot to November. That is, that is fully things that are true at the time. And so therefore, will remain true that that happened and that's how people felt about it. I think the bigger problem is the word, a lot of people using the word journalist who are not journalists. A lot of people who are-- JON STEWART: OK. EUGENE DANIELS: --saying they're reporters, are not that. And so you're having folks that are like share, are sharing full opinions and on, whether it's cable news, on podcasts, in their own articles, in op-eds, like, the American people aren't really, they have so much going on-- --that they are not going to spend a lot of time to go Google if, if Joe Bob is an actual reporter at a news organization or if Joe Bob used to work for the Democratic Party at one point and now he's a consultant, right. They're not going to do that. JON STEWART: But there are news organizations of great reputation that I just read those headlines from. Those aren't, that's not from like Jimmy's blog. EUGENE DANIELS: Yeah. JON STEWART: That's The New York Times, The Atlantic, Politico. Like, these are reputable organizations. DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN: I think that people should have, given what we've seen in the last four weeks where everything changed, a greater respect for the idea that fate could intervene at any time. And maybe that would prevent them from making whatever's happening now a projection for the future. I mean, for example, when, when Lyndon Johnson pulled out of the race, accolades everywhere. He was able three days later, North Vietnam said they would come to the bargaining table. It was his happiest day of his life. People on the streets were cheering for him. And then the next day, as the plane was ready to go to Hawaii to bring people to start the negotiations, Martin Luther King was killed. And then the riots happened in the streets. And then two months later, Bobby Kennedy was killed. JON STEWART: Oh, my goodness. That all happened within those? DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN: Within. That's what I'm saying. So, that should give you a sense that fate can intervene. Things can change at any moment. And maybe even what you're feeling at the moment. Vance is a great choice. He's they're heading toward the-- You don't have to say where we're going for the future. We should have more, more understanding that we don't know the future. And the future keeps backing us up every single time, as we've seen in this last four weeks. Who could have predicted the events of the last four weeks? So I think they should feel able. And now, I'm, Eugene knows this better than I, I'm not a journalist. I know 50 years from now, if I come back, I'll tell you exactly what it was going to be and how it ended. But they can't know that at the time. JON STEWART: Doris, did you just say, if I may, did you just make the prediction? You're coming back in 50 years? [LAUGHTER] To put in context for the American public-- DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN: Well, look, if my dead presidents are alive, wouldn't that be terrific? JON STEWART: I think that's amazing. No, that's a wonderful point. EUGENE DANIELS: Yeah. JON STEWART: I wanted to ask, and Eugene, this is probably to you. What does happen now? What are the mechanics? [LAUGHTER] No, I don't mean, what happens now is like, Kamala Harris. What are the mechanics now of this convention? EUGENE DANIELS: Yeah. JON STEWART: Basically, it, it is an open convention, I would assume, unless they do a nominating vote prior to that. But what, what are the mechanics of what we're going to see next? EUGENE DANIELS: Yeah. I mean, first, the rules committees are meeting to decide the rules, right, within, within the party. JON STEWART: Those are not set prior? That's, that's something that happens that close to it? EUGENE DANIELS: Yeah. You can change. And then they, and then often they vote on the rules like as a full delegation at the convention. And so-- JON STEWART: Who are the Rules Committee made up of? Are they delegates? EUGENE DANIELS: They are. Some of them are delegates, but a lot of them are like the, a lot of names of them are people that folks will recognize as people who are in Democratic politics. They are members of different types of constituencies. JON STEWART: OK. EUGENE DANIELS: They are-- JON STEWART: Muckety-mucks of the party. EUGENE DANIELS: --governors, they're governors, they're members of. And so they're senators, some of them are local and state senators and members of the House Assemblies. And so they will kind of get together, they will decide what they're doing. We've got a draft proposal, and essentially what it says is, we're going to vote, and we're going to still have to hold a virtual roll call vote. And the reason is, they are certain that this kind of Ohio rule that if you don't have the name selected, if your person is not nominated, they can't make it on the ballot. Ohio changed the law. Ohio said, this law no longer matters. We can move on. The Democrats have chosen to ignore that. JON STEWART: How is it that a state could say you need the name of your nominee before you would get your nominating convention? That doesn't seem to make any sense. EUGENE DANIELS: And so they, they made this rule before, it seems before the convention was like fully set. And so that is where, it kind of everyone woke up and they're like, wait a second, we have to figure something out here. So they were going to do this with President Biden. There was a conversation about, maybe we don't need to do it with Harris. Ohio says they're good to go. But they don't trust the Republicans in Ohio at their word. And so they're going to continue to do that. And so it's by all intents and purposes, Vice President Harris is the presumptive nominee. We're not using that word, because they've, they've committed to her, they're not pledged to her. So, again, with keeping, knowing that fate can intervene, Doris, they could get on that roll call vote and say like, Jon Stewart is going to get it, let's go. JON STEWART: What? Oh, my God! I had no idea. EUGENE DANIELS: Congratulations. JON STEWART: I promised myself I wouldn't cry. Eugene, thank you so much. I-- EUGENE DANIELS: President Stewart. JON STEWART: --accept. DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN: I accept. JON STEWART: I'm only running in Ohio, only in Ohio. EUGENE DANIELS: Only in Ohio. And so that part will happen early. That also means Vice President Harris has to pick a running mate before then, because it's, the way that the proposal and the draft was, is that the speed at which, that she would have to do that. JON STEWART: This is just idiotic that Ohio is going to lead the Democrats around by the nose, rather than trusting the process that they have in place for choosing it in a measured way. It doesn't, it doesn't make any sense. And it just shows-- EUGENE DANIELS: Democrats don't want to roll the dice here, is what it is. They don't want to roll the dice in Ohio. JON STEWART: And maybe this is where we, this is where we end up. And this is where we end. And I thank you both for, for, for being here. But I want to talk about this very quickly. We are such a convoluted mess when it comes to our election systems, whether it's through the financial shenanigans of super PACs and all the loopholes that exist, and corporations are people, and money is free speech. And the $14 or $15 billion that we're going to spend on this election. And we don't know where the dark money is from. So from the financing to the rules to the ubiquity to the fact that it doesn't ever end, which means we are always at each other's throats and never have time for makeup electoral sex in the country, like we're just fighting at all times, like, we are a mess. DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN: But you know what, Jon? JON STEWART: Yes, ma'am. DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN: We created these problems, we can solve these problems. We can change things. We can have a political revolution. JON STEWART: Come on! DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN: We can make it so that money is not in politics. We can do these things. I mean, why are the best people not running for public office now? Because they know they're going to have to spend their time raising money, tons and tons of money. They know their private lives are going to be exposed. They don't think that they're going to be able to get very much done, because the two parties are at loggerheads. We created these problems by the system we created. We can change that system. JON STEWART: You know, they talked about, we can't make a change in our candidate, even given this most extreme and urgent new information that we've received during a debate, because we don't have enough time. DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN: We have time. JON STEWART: Meanwhile, France did their, they did two elections in six weeks. England did it in eight weeks. And those systems can be applied here. We have an electoral industrial complex that needs to be broken up. It is monopolistic, and, and FTC needs to get involved. Eugene, what say you, sir? EUGENE DANIELS: I think you're right. As someone who's in DC a lot, and I'm not going to prognosticate, but I have not seen enough of the kind of excitement from you and Doris about these kinds of things big enough to see changes actually happen. I can be pretty cynical on some of the political things, because people will say one thing behind closed doors. I'm pointing to my door. You can't see it. One thing behind closed doors, and then a completely different thing like to your face. And you know that the thing, both of those things are happening. So our political incentive structure is off, first of all. And so people don't always speak the things that they feel. Many of them do want these kinds of changes. Many of them want money out, money out of politics. There are a lot of Republicans who are speaking this language right now, which is really interesting. It used to be more of a Democratic message. And so there's a world in which they do come together. That world has to-- And this could be one of those moments where maybe the parties are looking around, depending on what happens in November-- JON STEWART: Well, the parties won't do it, because anybody who thinks they'll lose advantage-- EUGENE DANIELS: Right. JON STEWART: --in the same way that DC will never become a state, because in the way that our system works, you can't, the Republicans will never go for a Democratic area getting a senator or getting, you know, they're just never going to go for that type of sharing. But I think solving the time problem solves the money problem. EUGENE DANIELS: And it helps to solve the hatred in the country. DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN: That's right. EUGENE DANIELS: You know, like the amount of attacks that we all receive, come from this, like the length of time at which-- JON STEWART: Yes. EUGENE DANIELS: --we're hitting each other. There's attack ads. Everyone's saying, this person's the worst person that's ever lived. JON STEWART: It's a constant. Yeah. EUGENE DANIELS: Exactly. So, it's just, there's a lot of things that if we fix this one thing, could work better in this country. I think the country might be better off for it. DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN: Let us three pledge. Let's pledge that we're going to argue about this. I mean, just think of how much better our lives would be if we only had to focus on these presidential elections over a six-week period or a 10-week period. JON STEWART: Right. DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN: And we didn't have to think about them day after day after day. We just have to believe that we can do it. I mean, we've made bigger changes in our lives, in our political lives over time. We ended segregation. We allowed more people to vote that didn't vote. Women couldn't vote for so long, and Black people couldn't vote for so long. We've made those changes. We have to change the system as it is now. You've gotten me really riled up right now. I better live for another 50 years, so I can be part of this. I want to be part of it. JON STEWART: I'm so riled up, and I know that you and Eugene are riled up, and we can do this. EUGENE DANIELS: And we have the technology. DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN: OK. EUGENE DANIELS: This is a world, and the media cycle that, like, in years ago, like, if this was the, the '60s or even if it was the 1800s and people had to get on their horse and buggy and go around and introduce themselves to all the Americans, that would be much more difficult. These people can introduce themselves at the drop of a hat. There, you can have the amount of ads, the amount of Twitter, the amount of information we can get about these people in a short amount of time actually wouldn't be difficult. JON STEWART: Two to three months is almost too long. People will already be sick of it. You'll already be in that cycle of, I'm tired of this person, I want the next person. The idea that this vetting process is somehow getting us closer to more competent and better leadership is nonsense and insane. And we have created an electoral campaign system that does the opposite of what it is intended to do, which is, we've created a system so burdensome, so onerous, so expensive, so hate-filled, that all it does, is drag the worst of us to the highest positions in leadership. And I say, it changes now. And I'm proud to announce my co-chairs of Eugene Daniels and Doris Kearns Goodwin. And we're going to make this happen. And I didn't even-- DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN: Hurray! JON STEWART: I didn't even curse once-- EUGENE DANIELS: Not once. JON STEWART: --during that entire speech. EUGENE DANIELS: Very good, very good. JON STEWART: You guys are the best. Thank you for, for, for joining us today. Really helpful and really informative. Doris Kearns Goodwin, it's always an honor to see you and a delight. I don't see you enough. And Eugene Daniels, so nice to meet you. Doris Kearns Goodwin, presidential historian, Pulitzer Prize-winning author. Most recent book, An Unfinished Love Story Personal History of the '60s. Eugene Daniels, POLITICO White House correspondent, Playbook co-author, thank you both so much for joining us. EUGENE DANIELS: Thank you for having me. DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN: Thank you. [MUSIC PLAYING] JON STEWART: Man! [BANGING] That was terrible for Rob on sound and, or Nicole, but, man, I'm fired up now. There was an epiphany in the middle of it that it's not about the-- the money follows the time. Because the elections are never ending, the, the money hose is unceasing. If we change the time, we change the money, we change the atmosphere, we change the corrosive and eroding effects that it has on our souls. We shorten the time we have to endure this nonsense. LAUREN WALKER: That is so true. It really gave me hope, because when I think about tackling the money in politics issue, it seems insurmountable. But addressing the time is a secret way in. JON STEWART: I think that's right. It's a back door hack. It's, we call it a life hack on the TikTok world. LAUREN WALKER: Yes. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Jon, are you on TikTok? JON STEWART: I'm in my life hack era. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Got it. JON STEWART: I'm not on TikTok, but Maggie makes me know-- BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. JON STEWART: --Kamala is brat. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Doris is brat. JON STEWART: Doris is brat, and I didn't know what that was, and then Maggie just goes. And I was like, I don't know what that is, but I'm assuming it's something. But I have no idea. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: You did well. JON STEWART: But, but, but all delightful. How are we doing otherwise? I know we got some viewer questions or comments. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. JON STEWART: What, what, what are we dealing with this week? BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: We put out a call asking for people to send in some questions for you. So we have some for you. JON STEWART: Come at me, bro. Come at me, bro. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: We have someone who is starting college, and their roommates are random. And they want to know how they can avoid opinion slash political conflict in a tight dorm room. JON STEWART: Oh, you're not supposed to. That's the whole point of a dorm room. The whole point of a dorm room is, and then you got to read like Catcher in the Rye and then like, just get all fucked up and high and talk about it till 6:00 in the morning. The whole point of the college dorm room is not to avoid that, but to learn to navigate your way through it with this person that is really only in there because you guys wake up around the same time. I think that's pretty much how college roommates are now selected is, what time do you wake up, and are you a complete fucking pig. You know, so that's the gradation. But I would suggest, you are in close quarters. There is no better, you are now in the dojo. You are in the conversation and topic dojo, a 10 by 12 room, two twin beds, with plastic covering on it. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. JON STEWART: You haven't slept on shit like that ever. And, and this is boot camp for learning how to get along with another person that you don't-- I think they should switch roommates every six weeks and throw you into a whole other scenario of political and sociological tumult. And it should always end with like 6:30 in the morning being like, in theory, socialism does sound good, but in practice, it just never worked. That's what I, don't avoid it. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Lean in. JON STEWART: Dive in head first, feet first, and invest in a durable bong. Or is that, that's probably old school advice, because now the kids probably smoke in those, you know, the whatever those are. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Vapes? JON STEWART: Vapes! BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. There you go. JON STEWART: Every time I, every time I get a word or a thing that I don't quite-- Yeah, done, settled. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: All right, next question, and this is a quote. Oh, my God, babe, you've got to drop your skincare routine. JON STEWART: Oh. Well, here's, here's my routine. Don't do anything for 61 years. And let the chips fall where they may. [LAUGHS] Terrible, terrible. Well, so far, I think we've done an excellent job at responding to, to viewers' concerns. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Do you want another one? JON STEWART: You give me one more and then, and then we'll move it on. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah, all right, Jon. JON STEWART: Here we go, come on. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: I need advice on how to end a relationship. JON STEWART: Oh. It's so interesting to me. We're doing a podcast about social and political issues, and everything we're getting so far is like my lifestyle blog. Like, I think they want me to be a get ready with me influencer. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. JON STEWART: Talk about breakups and skincare. I think I've been doing the wrong show forever. LAUREN WALKER: That's the next podcast. JON STEWART: The breakup thing is, be creative. Nobody wants just a straight thing. Have them come in a room and go, oh, it's so bright in here. And then lower the blinds, and on it Is written, get the fuck out. Get out of my house. And then they're going to be like, oh, shit, that hurts. But, props to you for the creative endeavor in the way that you did it. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Some production value. LAUREN WALKER: It's like a reverse promposal. JON STEWART: That's right. BRITTANY MEHMEDOVIC: Yeah. JON STEWART: Solid show. Boy, did I love Doris. Very nice to meet Eugene. As always, I want to thank Lead Producer, Lauren Walker, Producer Brittany Mehmedovic, Video Editor and Engineer. Rob Vitola, Audio Editor and Engineer, Nicole Boyce, our Researcher and Associate Producer, Jillian Spear, and Executive Producers Chris McShane, Catie Gray. You guys are killing it. Great topics, great research, great information. Thank you all so much. And that's it for us. We'll see y'all next time on The Weekly Show. Bye bye. [MUSIC PLAYING] The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart is a Comedy Central podcast. It's produced by Paramount Audio and Busboy Productions.