Kamala Gets The Start (with David Axelrod) | The Focus Group Podcast

Intro there is in fact a tremendous jolt of energy uh uh in a party that was Mor abund a week ago uh so you know I don't want to get carried away by irrational exuberance she's got a lot of work to do but she's got a shot she's got a shot and that wasn't the case a week ago hello everyone and welcome to the focus group podcast I'm Sarah Longwell publisher of the book work and as you know I have been agitating for Joe Biden to get out of this race since that disastrous debate performance last month and it has happened that blocks Donald Trump's Glide path to the presidency but this week I want to talk about the work kamla Harris has in front of her to earn American voters trust now we're still waiting on really reliable polling on this new reset race but Harris starts as a slight Underdog in a CNN poll conducted after Biden dropped out she trailed Trump by three points nationally while Biden trailed by six points in that poll in June today we're going to look back on voters reactions to her over the years and where her campaign has to go from here because this is an important period for commis campaign I've been known to say that public opinion is malleable at first and then it hardens like cement my guest today is grizzled my producer wrote that so sorry grizzled veteran of Democratic presidential campaigns David Axel Rod former senior adviser to President Obama and host of two great podcasts the axe files and hack on tap one of my favorites David thanks for being here great great to be here grizzled kind of bugs me because I actually shaved for very Shor you look yes I'm I'm I'm freshly Shor freshly sh and yet I still get hit with a grizzled thing I'm sorry I think it's a little agist actually yes yeah well you know I like the presentent I'm used to that so so so tell me what did you make of Biden's speech last night let's start with that so we're taping this on what day is it today's Thursday yeah so Wednesday night so Wednesday night there was a speech what did you think about his speech um I thought his speech I I you know look Joe Bidens speech partly I think he deserves a lot of Grace for this moment it's a hard hard decision for anybody to make and particularly a guy like Joe Biden who who has you know whose stubborn pride and in imitability has led him through so many uh difficult situations U over the course of his life in career you know he thinks he can overcome any obstacles so this was a hard decision for him I thought he did very well I thought he met the moment uh I thought there was a nobility to the message and uh and and he did you know put it in terms of the stakes of the election he did embrace the Vice President in the the way he should I know there were complaints that he didn't acknowledge the reason that he decided to leave other than to say that he was stepping aside because he thought it would unite the country uh I'm less you know I'm less uh I don't think dwelling on the fact that you know people thought he was too old or that he you know I just don't think that was necessary in this speech so I thought I actually thought he did a really good job Joe Bidens age what wa wait what did you think since I heard you in your introduction essentially take credit for the fact that he got out of the race was I feel like I feel like you should at least uh share your critique of the speech I am not taking credit I am simply saying that look I I and and you have too I was going to ask you about this yeah uh we took we took a a few weeks of drubbing here as we talked about well I took a year and a half of drubbing well this is you and I agreed on this a long time ago um I I do not I was very clear I didn't think he should run and it's because of the focus groups I mean I've been listening to voters talk about the fact that this guy is too old to do the job uh for a long time I'm not sure how worthwhile it is to dwell on that to your point now because I feel like we have done I mean it's done it's done yeah we've turned the page there is an issue though and you do you know you there is this issue that the Republicans are trying to work as to whether people have been you know whether the people around the president including the vice president like deceived the public I don't think the public was deceived you know I mean I don't think anybody expected what they saw in that debate but obviously neither did his team or they wouldn't have sent him out there to debate uh so the nature of Aging is that it happens uh it happens you know on its on its own pace and it tends to Quicken as one gets older that's why at the beginning of the race before he got in you know my feeling was that he shouldn't run it I said my analysis was not political it was Actuarial yeah and now we've seen that and by the way I think that's now an issue for Donald Trump nobody believes age is an issue for him but you know he is going to be the oldest president ever elected if he wins and uh sure should raise some attention to his VP Choice oh I think I Trumps age think age is an issue for him I think he made I think he set the terms of this race around age and infirmity and now he has to live in that frame as we go forward um so I don't I don't think it's I think it was not an issue for him relative to Biden I think what you'll find though is that you know I think that that and you heard some of it in these groups that we're going to talk about I think the assassination attempt uh and and the way he responded to it kind of added to this image of indomitability that he has and so you know he gets some points on that and I don't so but the truth is if you go back to the debate that was so dramatically bad for Biden it was only slightly better for Trump I mean he was and had there had he had a worthy opponent and I don't mean worthy in terms of you know personal Merit but on that day on that stage uh I think he would have suffered in that debate I'm really interested in the next one because uh he will have a worthy opponent and people may focus more on the sort of he may be the adult old man on the stage yeah um I I do think he is Biden voters uh both a little addled and a little old but um let's let's jump into the voters uh so I want to get into how the voters talked about Biden's decision to leave the race let's listen to what a group of trump to Biden voters said about it after Biden made his announcement these people should be enjoying their retirement you have like worked hard your whole life and how do we wind up with like these very old white men I really wish he had done it before the primaries so that the vot voters could have had a say in who the nominee was like I feel like this is very much oh now all of the big donors get to pick I really wish he would have thought of this a while ago when there was like viable options you should not be running the country at that age uh because half of the time they don't know where they are and they don't know what they're doing why do we need to roll somebody into wheelchair onto the Congress and then like sit there while they're sleeping and snoring it should have been done a lot earlier but just glad it's been done now like Biden's struggling to keep up like maybe he's just a little slow and saying things that don't add up so I think you know that tells me as a voter okay maybe maybe you should step down and take care of yourself it's a right move and I think based on what I'm seeing online it seems like the younger generation they are more likely to vote for Harris over Biden that's just the vibe that I get based on what's being posted online and based on what's being shared on social media I felt that it was um Joe's decision and I really hope that it was I mean I I know it seemed like he was being forced out every day they were like Joe needs to step down but I think at the very end he he realized it was the best thing for the country I wish that he had not ran again like that he had made this decision a long time ago so obviously the voters were kind of harsh on Biden for taking so long reach this decision but personally I hope history is kind to him but I'm I'm curious what do you think Biden's Legacy is going to be well look um part of it is tied to this election Bidens legacy if he pulls out if his if his withdrawal leads to KLA Victory and a second Trump defeat that in in and of itself is a landmark achievement uh having beaten Trump once and engineered his defeat again uh but look I I think that I think history Will Be Kinder Sarah to Joe Biden he did uh he took over under the remember his inaugural on the steps of a battle scarred Capital surrounded in barbed wire in a country that was Riven by was that was uh ravaged by a pandemic and uh he he led the country through that uh he he Against All Odds and in a very divided Congress passed some landmark legislation including the infrastructure Bill and some uh on bills on climate and health care and uh you know even a a a gun safety Bill and you know he and he and you know I think his leadership and pulling the world together against Putin's aggression you know may not sit well with Tucker Carlson and uh with JD Vance but I think it will history will look kindly on that so I think his legacy in some ways will be rescued by the decision that he made to leave this race which would have colored his uh his legacy had he stayed I think he would have lost and I think he would have lost badly and I think a lot of Democrats would have lost with him as a result and that would have been the Cota on a very distinguished career he he's avoided that yeah I think that if she wins uh Stepping aside him stepping aside will be the number one piece of his legacy because it's such an extraordinary action I think we can't appreciate up close to it uh like I hear the frustration I feel frustrated by it I also tend to believe it's never too late to do the right thing even though time is very short um but I just think that you know a hundred years from now the thing it will seem like a miracle to people uh that somebody that he he this sort of old uh white guy get gave up uh the presidency and turned it over uh to uh a a younger generation a more diverse generation and that history will look very kindly on him especially if she wins she who does this who does who walks who walks away from the Pinnacle of power and I know in these groups the the groups that we watched there were and you heard it some of it there you know people saying he was forced out they don't like the fact that they were handed kamla and so on although in know polling the numbers are overwhelming that he did the right thing and at least among Democrats overwhelming support uh uh for her uh but I you know um it it really wasn't it to the degree that he was pressured out it yes politicians expressed themselves to him but they were merely expressing what voters were saying voters were saying he should step down and so at the end of the day uh voters had their say and he listened and he acted on it so uh I I you know I think we should this wasn't it wasn't the donors and it wasn't the politicians it was the reality that the American people had made a judgment and he yielded to that judgment yeah I will say not all not all swing voters definitely bu that there is still a sense of uh uh Not all swing voters and and I think it's being fanned by Republicans well it is it's part of the Dei presidency stuff is trying to sort of tack onto this idea that she didn't earn it right because Americans really like this idea somebody earned it and that that was robbed of a primary an opportunity to earn it and so um I do think that's one of the things that she's gonna have to sort of get over the hump of that uh and she knows that because the first thing she said was she wanted to earn the nomination but I'll tell you something about these presidential Races by the time they get to November uh there'll be no doubt that she earned or didn't earn it uh I mean she she's going to be toe-to-toe with a brawling and frankly uh a uh uh unbounded uh opponent who will do anything to win and if she can stand up under the fusel OD that's going to come uh she will have earned it and you know her I think people will learn you know I don't want to jump ahead in the program here but people are going to learn a lot about her and what they're going to find is oh she actually has a long career she was a prosecutor she was uh you know and a pretty tough prosecutor she was an attorney general and she took on some really powerful interests she's been representing the country around the world uh in a serious way and you know I I think that uh I don't think one of the things interesting things in the New York Times poll is they said uh they one of the questions was which candidate is is is is either smarter or more intelligent and she had like a nine-point lead she did on Trump so uh that tells me they've been paying some attention to both of them I hope that they continue to discover how smart she Kamalas transition is but they're pretty sure he's a dummy um so I want to throw something at you um so I I had been a big Biden should Biden shouldn't run and then I you know wanted him to get out of meie and I had sort of my fantasy candidate picks people that I thought you know I thought a Whitmer Shapiro get the get block up Michigan and Pennsylvania um and I even talked to a lot of black voters in the focus groups and did not believe there was not this sense they just wanted to beat Trump um and there was not this sense of oh it has to be kamla or there's going to be a revolt and yet and yet the way that this has happened I have found myself quickly feeling like this was actually exactly the right way for it to go um and even even though um I think that kamla has some liabilities I just I wonder if you think that the way that she has comported herself since she became the nominee or she's not the nominee exactly yet but since it became clear that it was her and the fact that there was sort of this seamless transition do you it seems like it almost could have gone as well as it possibly could have do you think that true or not well yes I mean I think she's had a really a really spectacular roll out here and and the roll out is not just this sort of shock and awe of how she put together the nomination in a matter of hours uh which showed a kind of Mastery the inside game but the candidate who we've seen in her public interventions is a much different candidate than we saw four years ago when she wasn't frankly very good she seems comfortable she seems in command she seems uh you know relaxed given the male that she's now been tossed in and her messaging has been good uh her messaging has been very very good the comparative that she set up with Trump the focus on some kitchen table issues uh I I've been really really impressed with uh how she's handled herself and you know uh the thing is Sarah these campaigns whether they're truncated or elongated they are oral exams that never end and people are looking at you close and they're looking particularly closely at her right now I think she's done very well the the challenge for her is going to be uh I mean that we'll talk about other challenges the challenge for her is going to be putting together a kind of fighting machine in midair uh and and retrofitting it to the campaign that she's in that not the campaign that uh Biden was in but in terms of her own performance uh I think she's really helped herself and obviously there is in fact a tremendous jolt of energy uh uh in a party that was Mor abund a week ago uh so you know I don't want to get carried away by irrational exuberance uh because I've seen a lot of that in the last few days she still has a tough race the times had a new poll out today she you know Biden was down six the last time they pulled a couple of weeks ago she's down one but everybody needs to remember that one point a onepoint loss for a democratic nationally probably is an electoral Landslide against them Democrats have to have a big lead in N you know two three four points Biden won by 7 million votes last time and barely won because of 45,000 votes in three states so because of the nature of where the population is in this country Democrats need a lead so she's got a lot of work to do she's gaining among black uh black voters Hispanic voters and younger voters she's probably losing a little ground among uh some segments of white voters um she's got a lot of work to do but she's got a shot she's got a shot and that wasn't the case a week ago so let's Kamala Harris in 2020 listen to a small sample of what we've heard recently about Harris uh over the last couple of years because there's voters been very consistent about KLA Harris in terms of what they think about her especially uh a lot of Swing voters but so the people you're about to hear they all voted for the Biden Harris ticket let's listen she does nothing she's plugging in an electric car on the news today and that was it I'm like do something woman I feel like she's making us look stupid as a woman when Obama and Biden were in office together you could see that both of them really acted as a team for some reason I don't get the idea that Biden and Harris are acting as much of a team it's not giving me the same energy like they had before it doesn't feel like a partnership it just feels like a business steal I think Biden's office doesn't even like her because they give her the worst assignments over and over again and set her up to look bad and you know and she doesn't really help recase I feel like Michelle Obama was way better and was way more visible I never see KLA Harris anywhere and I personally am extremely disappointed I feel like she wasn't very visible at all during Row versus Wade something that majorly affects women in our country she's been put in charge of like task force the border and um she was on like a gun violence task force and none of that's improved I'm wondering what she's done after the election she vanished yes so I can't put my trust in The Invisible Woman she just doesn't seem like she's presidential material and that's something that's important for the vice president because it could happen there was this like press interview and somebody was asking her you know can she support giving support to Ukraine and she just like smiled giggled and laughed I mean that that is a war torn country and you're just laughing at it and playing it off I feel like he chose her because that was the thing at the moment you know with black lives matter it's like uh everything was going on and obviously you know uh racial Justice I don't think she was qualified but I mean it's nice to have a female vice president but you don't hear her all the things that she's have been against minorities the only advancement is that she's female and of color but is she really that's like saying Kristen Cinema is a Democrat and she's freaking voting for The Republican uh Kristen Cinema is there so uh so that she was she has universally I dont see her gotten tough reviews uh from voters those a lot of those are swing voters they voted for and these were taken from interviews you've done over just the last couple years I just we wanted to give sort of a a sense of but the number one thing so this is um sometimes I'm going to tell you about a phenomenon that I I discover listening to focus groups all the time which is sometimes the context changes and suddenly the thing that you've been hearing people say for a long time sounds different or hits in a different way and let me explain this I have now heard for years the number one complaint about KLA Harris is I don't see her I don't know her what does she do uh you know it's been that when I after Biden's debate and I started thinking about okay what what would be like obviously I had my ideal scenario but I was like okay if it's KLA if she's the most likely scenario like how I feel like ah these voters they don't like her then I thought about it and I was like actually what they're saying is I don't know her I don't see her and I realized no that's there's upside there there's upside there because if they see her if they get to know her if they feel like they see what she's doing if they feel like they know what she believes these people could get there for her absolutely look what the what I heard in these focus groups was the challenge and the opportunity there's a race going to happen here between the Trump campaign and their allies and the uh Harris campaign and their allies to Define her and uh you know there I think that uh you're going to see both the super pack and campaign on the air probably by Weekend uh for Harris and I a lot of that's going to be biographical uh just to fill in the picture and as you point out she's filling in the picture and the more people see her especially if she performs as she has I mean the growth has been pronounced uh and uh she you know I actually think there's a legitimate uh complaint here because I don't think the Administration has given her uh you know Biden was very visible because Biden was handed very visible assignments uh discreet and achievable uh on which he did a good job uh he also was a familiar figure for four decades you know in Washington but um so you know she now has an opportunity to int to reintroduce herself uh to the country in a much different way and I think that's a great opportunity for her as long as they sees it quick L before the uh Trump campaign you know fills the uh Airwaves with B about her yeah so uh first of all I What voters are saying completely agree with that analysis and so I want to get into uh what voters have been saying about Harris since Biden announced his withdrawal from the race because much of it will sound like what we just heard but I think with a little more emphasis on the opportunity side I think you she's quick wted she's funny she has a personality there are people out there that don't want to vote for a female president I think those same people are ones that would not vote for Biden either I really think that far more people were racist and sexist than they let on and that's going to be how they vote it's going to be the oh but what happens if you know she has a bad day and she gets really emotional I mean Hillary Clinton let's be honest she just wasn't a very likable personality and I I think that's why she lost the election Trump at the time was something really different he was not a career politician and I think that's a large part of the reason why people were interested in him but you know I think America's ready to elect a woman I think it'd be a good thing and I think that the overturning roie Wade hopefully she can stoke the Flames of that fire as a a female presidential candidate to Rally people and you know especially women to get out and vote if you think about Obama's wife I mean at least she did some things I mean this is his wife at least she was visible and I can't say anything I forgot that she was the vice presedent for a while I feel like I just don't know her well enough the positive part is I assume her being a woman she's going to be looking out for women's rights um she's not be throwing women under the bus trying to put us stuck at home cooking and cleaning like 2025 project I'm like oh man that sounds like where that's said in it be like a breath of fresh air um I feel like like it'll be like a new beginning instead of feeling like you're watching a rerun because Trump has already been in office what I do know about vice president's hair is is not attractive to me you know her time in California as the attorney general or the district attorney to me she did a lot of tag alone like a lot of taking on anything that's popular when we're tough on crime she kind of used that to uh facilitate some arrests that were questionable if you will you know a good leader will understand that sometimes you've got to take a look at what you've done in the past and if it's wrong you've got to admit that and Harris refus to admit that she locked up some people that she probably shouldn't have and and to me she doesn't have any passion for anything like everything's all laugh for everything's funny nothing's passionate Like Bernie Sanders I know exactly where he stand she's just in the background right now like she's the backup she's on the bench essentially doing like sports analogy there like now her time to shine she gets a starting role so I I got to see what she does and I wish that this happen a lot earlier so that we would have more time to formulate an opinion and get to know her better over the course of time because now that Windows a lot shorter so I know that there's still like some real negativity in there Breath of fresh air but I gotta say that is as nice like the thing I'm hearing since since Biden uh stepped aside we've done a couple of groups I've actually been there's been like people saying breath of fresh air there's a lot of people saying they're like interested in hearing her pitch there there are people with a negative impression of her but it is an impression there's only a few people who have like locked in negativity around her it's more like than not knowing her and I also will say we it is weird to me the way people keep bringing up Michelle Obama Obama's wife when K is the vice president that it seems like a weird thing people are doing in their minds with women related like with black women um I I would note one thing about that uh uh young uh black man who who talked about her prosecutorial record in California uh I read and I believe that the Trump campaign says there they're going to attack her from the left on crime in Communications to Young uh black men in particular because they're worried as they should be in this New York Times poll I think she dropped from 23 among African-Americans to 15 uh in the course of a matter of days with Harris on the ballot but uh you know they're going to want to you know the the way uh these guys generally run against African-American candidates is to call them super liberal and soft on crime and they may try to do that but on the other hand they're going to be try to work it from the left because she actually was a pretty tough prosecutor um I if I were her I'd lean into that you know because I think that um that is part of her story that she didn't want to emphasize in 2020 and I think you took a big part of her biography away Kamalas laugh from her yeah you know one other thing that comes up a lot in the groups that is is interesting and stupid is uh kamla Harris's laugh um but I I was I've been I've been it has been nice to hear and you heard it in in that sound uh more people finding her like everything you heard and that I've heard in these groups has been negative as though that's a cackle whatever there is a new renewed sense of KLA Harris as somebody who has Joy um that her laugh and that she there's the one of these guys in here was talking about it not take not taking it seriously there's other uh I've heard other people say you know uh there was someone else uh in here who was sort of said like I think she has a good personality like I'm just hearing more positivity than I've heard before even with just this very short period of time and so I think that you you've you've watched her do you think that she has this is a question I get a lot and I have an opinion on it but I'm interested in yours do you think she has the ability to win over more of these swing voters I I do I do and especially you know I mean I say that now having watched her for the last few days um there was no there the you know the Laugh In some ways was a reflection of her uncertainty and nervousness uh there was none of that in the last few days when she laughs it's in an appropriate way at an appropriate time uh I I just think she's gone through metamorphosis and despite what who one of those respondents said about uh Row versus Wade I think part of the way that she's found her sea legs at this level has been as the point person on the administration's response to the Supreme Court decision and she's been all over the country talking about that uh but uh she is uh not the same person she's the same person but she's not the same political uh performer that she was uh early in the administration and in the last campaign you know I think one of the things that's interesting is that Authenticity while these voters talk about the fact that they don't see her that does not mean that she has not been out there and so she has had three years of gaining uh diplomatic experience of being on the road and talking to people over and over again and I I want to here's another thing I I'll put to you this is a theory I have voters like nothing more than authenticity and I think you're right when you say the laugh was a function of nervousness but also of her having to carry somebody else's brand somebody else's agenda like the thankless job of a vice president right is in part that you are subsumed into somebody else and I think think her running in 2020 uh to the left of everybody in that Campa like all of that felt in inauthentic and it was and she looked inauthentic and so she looked in authentic and so I think part of what we're seeing now is a mixture of experience real experience of the last three years and the fact that like she's on her own now she gets to be who she wants to be she gets to be herself and suddenly she looks so much more comfortable in her skin uh and I think that voters which is an essential an essential ingredient in it successful National candidate inauthentic candidates never win even Donald Trump no one ever says GE I wish Donald Trump would speak his mind you know right uh so you know authenticity is the coin of the realm in presidential races and she seems like a lot more authentic now than she did when she ran in 200 and well really 19 because she didn't make it to 2020 that's right that's right um all right I want to get into something that Project 2025 is uh coming up more and more often uh in the focus groups project 2025 uh when KLA Harris was on the trail this week uh she reacted to Trump's project 2025 agenda um and I want to let's listen to how it comes up with the Trump to Biden votes so these are the swing votes the Trump to Biden voters we talked to just want to take a quick break and tell you guys that the bull workk is heading to Dallas Texas for a one night live show Thursday September 5th I'll be joined by Tim Miller Bill Crystal Sunny bunch and our newest bull workk contributor former congressman Adam kinzinger I love doing these live shows because they are the best opportunity to meet like-minded folks who remind you that you are not the crazy one even as our politics gets crazier every day I hope you'll join me for this fun night of politics among bullwark friends in Dallas tickets are on sale now head to the bull work.com events to get yours today and I will see you guys in Dallas I don't know if you guys are familiar with project 20225 but that is terrifying and it's very real and uh if you guys don't know about it Google it it's really bad they want to dissolve the EPA entirely and the Supreme Court's already starting to take steps they want to completely get rid of the federal uh Department of Education the Secretary of Education and put all that on the states which is going to hurt impoverish schools the worst which is really bad they're already struggling and there's so much more they want to make contraceptives illegal like what I mean I could probably go on forever about it but there's literally nothing good in there let's start with the I'll call it loyalty tests for government employees like wanting to basically do away with gay marriage and so much of it just makes it sound like they really just want women pregnant in the kitchen and if you're not a straight white man you have no place in society I'm going to vote for her regardless because project 2025 scares me way too much it's a lot and it's not good and it's it's changing a lot of laws and reversing a lot of things and looks like a lot of a lot of not good stuff I read into it a while back I don't remember but some of the stuff that redded was posting and they posted specific links it seems like very very specific rules about certain things some of them sound a little extreme as I read it it kind of was crazy on paper I wasn't for a lot of it it has a lot of religion taking over the country it it had a bit of crazy in there I wasn't for it because you know America is supposed to be free give people the right to be what they want to be give women the the choice to choose for them I shouldn't be allowed to choose for a woman I am not qualified so let them choose I've heard it's just like Christian nationalism essentially they want to remove the boundaries between church and state and they want to persecute people who buy contraceptives and that sort of stuff so yeah just basically rolling back progress to like the 1950s basically so Project 2025 as an electoral issue David here's what's so interesting to me about this so there's this terrible three weeks right where the Democratic party and some of us never trumpers are having a big fight uh over Biden stepping aside and all of a sudden sort of the folks who want Biden to stay in start they start doing this thing where it's like why are you talking about Biden you should be talking about project 2025 now of course I've known about project 2025 for a long time now but I was always sort of like guys like people were talking about schedule F and I was like you're are not gonna get voters to care about schedule F guys but it was like in the in this because of this sort of tension it was like there was this explosive interest in Project 2 and making that kind of a forward-looking talking point and it manifested and now it seems like project 2025 has become this like nebulous catchall for all the scary stuff Trump wants to do in a second term uh which is how sort of the median voter seems to know about it right so what do you think can we make project 2025 a real uh electoral issue well I've been skeptical and I'm still somewhat skeptical I think you can make elements of project 2025 absolutely an issue in the campaign as those as those folks described there are things in there that are so noxious and so extreme that I think they will drive voters away my question is I mean it to me I mean I don't know what the the listening habits of these particular respondents were sounds like a very much like an MSNBC thing you know I like part you know shanding everything as project 2025 sounds like a Washington an MSNBC thing to me and I think you might be better testing the elements of project 2025 figuring out what the most uh egregious and frightening elements of it are and offering them as as Trump's program because despite his denials that 900 page Manifesto was written by his people and so you know he can run from it but uh it's you know very in accord with things that he said and what we can expect kind of a zombie democracy uh of the sort that they now have under the leadership of his hero uh Victor Orban in Hungary yeah he can run for it but I'll tell you uh and this really isn't uh but we can talk about it JD Vance and Project 2025 for a minute it's not really in here uh but the the choice of JD Vance yeah also just ties him more to it JD Vance like wrote the forward for the Heritage Foundation like the book on it and uh I will say the sort of um Trump is obviously has a horrible track record with women but because so much of it is baked in uh project 2025 plus Vance is adding a new level it's like causing voters as best I can tell to take even in this last like week since it's happened there's this new like these guys are weird what are they doing right the weird and extreme I think JD Vance was the an awful choice for Trump an awful choice that they are going to deeply regret and they may already be uh regretting but I I feel like it's not I I so I agree with you that at some point they're going to have to put some meat on the project 2025 bones and like get people some it's like how woke woke is a catchall nebulous term but it had like some specific things that people could really kind of grab on to and I think it's going to need a little bit uh more of that but I don't think it's bad at all uh for there to be sort of a just a thing that people say like woke that sort of tags on to the idea of the SE guys are weird and extreme and I don't like it well you could you know I can Envision a spot where you say where you tell people what project 20125 is and you know just put some money behind that and then and all and then quickly describe what comes Under The Heading so that people understand and then close out with what you know the conclusion that you just drew you know extreme scary yeah Trump you know I just Kamala Harris Running Mate think you know I think one of the things that that people have been dealing with the fact that so many of Trump's liabilities are sort of litigated baked in well-known um and you know I just think the the project 22 Advance are sort of helping to reev some of that stuff in a and reanimate some of it uh in new ways which I think is good yes all right speaking of VPS now that Harris has gotten a battlefield promotion there's a job opening in the Democratic party so I want to hear what voters like let's listen to what voters had to say about her process for picking running mate like who kind of person do they want to see now we don't know much about her we don't know what her priorities are I really hope it would be a qualified person versus you know trying to check a box and say okay well I need to check this box and this box I really feel like at least pick somebody that has some Charisma definitely want to see a balanced ticket like a moderate Democrat because she is a little bit on the you know far left side of the spectrum I mean forgive me if this does sound racist but I just hope she's not like let me build us both up and you know let me pick another black woman so that we can all rise together I just hope that it's really someone that's of Merit like someone that could balance like areas that might be perceived as weaknesses you know because I think most of us have said we don't know a lot about her we don't know what she's done although I'm confident she has been working we just don't know on what but obviously all of us have strengths and areas that we need to work on so okay so you wrote in your book believer about Choosing a Vice President how Obama in 2008 was looking for some gray hair uh and Washington experience on the tickets who now by the way he doesn't need gray hair because one of the things that comes along with being president is your hair quickly Grays but go ahead uh well I I'm just I'm interested in how that was sort of an obvious way to think about balancing a ticket how should she be thinking about by the way I mean there were a lot of different dimensions to that decision we wanted someone we wanted someone with gray hair but also someone who had Washington experience because Obama had not very much we wanted someone who was uh very much fluent in uh in global Affairs uh and we wanted someone who could uh go into the uh Northern Industrial States the Battleground states that are still battle grounds Pennsylvania Michigan uh Wisconsin maybe Minnesota uh who uh uh who was comfortable campaigning in those areas uh and you know uh we thought Biden was uh was a good person for that uh so you know you know mo moderate experienc older I mean he checked a lot of boxes uh and uh was you know helpful to us I think that the selection of a vice president is important uh because it's the first presidential decision you make and it gives people Clues as to how you're going to govern and so in her case I think it's particularly important because they don't know that much about her yet so this will be one more insight into who she is uh and uh so I you know I I think they they and and it's interesting to see and I wanted to ask you as a Pennsylvanian uh your thoughts on this I mean one other issue is it has been a long time since a vice presidential candidate sort of delivered an election to someone it was probably Lyndon Johnson in 1960 uh when Kennedy put him on the ticket in order to carry Texas uh the question is we hear the name of uh Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro who's a very talented young politician uh do you as a Pennsylvanian think that Shapiro on the ticket would help Harris carry what I think is an essential State yeah I'm I'm Pro Shapiro um I think she should pick Shapiro and Choosing Josh Shapiro that when you've got a young talented politician who's got 60% approval rating in a the The Tipping Point State uh I think that's a tough thing to walk away from I I'm interested in what you think the main push back that I hear that is compelling to me but doesn't always hit me quite right as a sort of Centrist right leing person uh is the fear of Josh Shapiro not being Jewish but being sort of pro-israel and very fluid talking about his faith in a way that I think people are worried reopens the wounds of the big Gaza fight uh what do you make of that well I mean look I hear that uh and uh I mean if you step back you wouldn't wouldn't be many years ago when the idea I mean I remember when Gore picked Joe liberman and that was like an Earth shaking development that a there'd be a Jew on a national ticket now you're talking about an African-American and a Jew and the question is you know are there negative ramifications of that Josh Shapiro's been incredibly successful in Pennsylvania and he's been successful in places where other Democrats have not uh in in small towns and rural areas as well as the big population centers in Pittsburgh in Philadelphia so you know it obviously hasn't bothered voters there uh in terms of the issue you raised I mean the place you're looking at mostly As a matter of concern is Michigan uh I've talked to people who I trust in Michigan who uh who who seem not to be as worried about that um the other thing that he would do and look there are other people who would be uh who would be good as well but um he is a very very talented um and kind of iconoclastic thinker who is not idiosyncratically liberal uh he you know I saw there were people on the left who who were unhappy about this actually if I were Harris I would I would not let that dissuade me uh in fact I think it would be quite a statement if she went her own way on this because I don't think that people are going to walk away from her in this race uh and I think it having a guy like joshiro who by the way I think would destroy uh JD Vance in a debate uh would uh would strengthen her in places where she needs to be Josh Shapiro strengthened I I really agree with that I mean he is my Top Choice like sort of with a bullet I become increasingly sometimes people can talk me into a slightly less exuberant position on him but they can't talk me out of him um I'm glad I didn't try it would have been a waste of time and you know when I see Josh shz I've seen him in Action a couple times I think he's an incredibly talented person well you saw him after did you see him after the assassination yeah he was excellent excellent he he understands people he knows how to talk to people but I'll tell you one of the things that strikes me about him do you know what he talk I see him talking about all the time is uh helping to put uh pads and tampons in schools it he is so proud of having gotten pads and tampons in school so that no girl has to miss school because she has her period because they're so expensive it is such a small almost odd thing for like a dude Governor to just talk about all the time um but I think that's the kind of thing that when that people get it like immediately clicks with people like oh you care about this let me let me raise one other that's not not not quite as uh well I don't know what the word is intimate I don't know but the uh he you know one of the first things he did when he became governor was reclassify a whole bunch of jobs in the state of Pennsylvania that uh you know state jobs that required a college degree but really didn't didn't need one and uh you know and and didn't account for other kinds of training and experience and you know one of the things that I think Democrats have done poorly I mean there there is this sort of anthropological approach to small to non- colge uh uh folks in in the country which is to say uh we're here to help you become more like us and the unstated message is somehow you are less than us uh Shapiro uh completely threw that out the window and it it aggravated some you know I I was in some Elite audiences where they thought that he was denigrating a college education I don't think he was doing that but there are a lot of people in this country who do essential work who are smart and able uh but it's just not necessarily you know they work with their hands they work with their heads but it may be technically trained work um you know and I I think that was a really insightful and important thing for him to do listen I don't want to just there are other people who I mean I you know you know I'm a mark Kelly is a really U formidable uh uh person uh I I think that Governor Cooper of North Carolina is is as well I think he's sort of taken himself out of it either officially or unofficially because he has I didn't know that well I don't know if he's done that publicly but the rumor is it's a rumor I don't know it's not but he you know if he leaves North Carolina under their constitution of the lieutenant governor uh who is a particularly problematical guy there yeah and is running for the Senate would have full power of the governorship and so he doesn't leave the state very much uh also he wants to run for the senate in a couple of years apparent ly so but he's certainly you know there's interest in Basher there's there are other people but I don't know Pennsylvania looms uh large in my head because I think it's the Tipping State and will remain so yes uh and um and I think that he has qualities that would broaden her appeal I think that's right I think she doesn't lose much by with because I think she in ways that Biden couldn't will hold on to people who will believe that she is more with them on some of those issues and uh Josh Shapiro can bring people in for whom they worry that she is more with them on those issues uh and I think that a balance but I guess I was you've actually thought about choosing a vice president before not I uh and so I guess one thing that I was curious about really in this choice is I could see making it there's a sort of a clinical political case to be made and then there's like an a more who does she VI with because there's part of me that also thinks really what you need is like a white dude who says look at this person she's excellent right who sort of builds her up helps her tell her story and helps build a permission structure for sort of loosely for white dudes who might need a little push to get there and so I could see a case for just like Basher Brewing out and all day long talking about how great she is in his Kentucky accent and that having value um if if she or like she's close with Pete you know or I think I don't know how close they are what do I know about people's relationships but by all accounts she and Pete know each other pretty bu P Budaj who by the way I think is the best political athlete yeah in the Democratic party and he's proving it he's going out there now uh on her behalf and uh he's killing it every time he goes out there you know there he's you know what just as there were there questions about black and Jew there a questions about uh a first black woman president and uh the first gay vice president uh that get gets raised and how you know how much can the the how much are people willing to accept and embrace uh but uh there is nobody better at messaging and at communicating than Pete budich I just want to throw that another name by the way I didn't mention is Governor Tim Waltz of Minnesota whose name has been mention men guy with military experience from the middle of the country um was a member of Congress another guy I think might be considered yeah I and I honestly I don't think there's a lot of bad choices in there I Political calculus think these are all perfectly good choices and you could make a case for a lot of them but I guess my question to you is really like is it Rapport and Vibes between two people or is it pure political calculus which one is more important well listen I there Barack Obama and Joe Biden were not close okay they weren't close in the Senate Obama was the most Junior member of the Foreign Relations Committee Biden was chair and a guy who very much uh lived by the seniority system so if you're the lowest man on the totem pole you don't get a whole lot of attention um and they were opponents in the campaign but uh you know over time they forged a very close relationship and friendship um but it was kind of a shotgun uh wedding and that's often the case in this case three of the people that she is considering or supposed to be considering uh Shapiro Basher and Cooper were all Attorneys General when she was an attorney general and she knows them all as colleagues I'm given a believe that she is very friendly with Josh Shapiro that they had a good relationship as fellow Attorneys General and uh that I think is Meaningful I do think especially for someone um who's being thrown into this morass in in such a late moment in the campaign to have someone W with whom you don't have to develop a relationship because you already have a relationship I think that might be advantageous yeah uh I agree with all that you know what we're gonna have to leave it there uh this was a great conversation David Axelrod thank you so much for joining us and thanks to all of you for listening to another episode of the f group podcast remember to rate and review us on Apple podcast And subscribe to the bull workk on YouTube we will see you guys next week